Author Topic: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.  (Read 328650 times)

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Offline faithlilly

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1290 on: February 24, 2017, 11:30:14 AM »
Well I am - and in my experience it's not odd at all.   I've been at wedding receptions, etc where toddlers have slept soundly in their buggies while a disco is blasting out around them.  In their time my own children have slept through thunderstorms, parties, hoovering, etc etc..    An  IMO most parents can say the same.

Gerry's son stayed asleep when he carried him down from an airplane in a noisy airport.

Kate said it was unusual and, allegedly, raised her concerns the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Gerry in the Panorama programme commented that they thought his children had been sedated. After coming home from Portugal they had the twins tested to see if they had been drugged.

Are you saying you know the McCann's children and sleeping patterns better than them?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1291 on: February 24, 2017, 11:36:40 AM »
Kate said it was unusual and, allegedly, raised her concerns the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Gerry in the Panorama programme commented that they thought his children had been sedated. After coming home from Portugal they had the twins tested to see if they had been drugged.

Are you saying you know the McCann's children and sleeping patterns better than them?

Kate knew her child well enough to say that she had not woke and wandered ... yet there are those who know better.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1292 on: February 24, 2017, 11:38:11 AM »
It is generally recognised that the child carrier on the streets of Luz that night were not one and the same person.  What there are of the descriptions tends to make that clear.  Jane Tanner only saw a side view and her description of the hair length - on which she was adamant - differs.
Therefore unless Tannerman was wearing a wig or had popped in and had a quick haircut ... he was not the man encountered by the Smiths thirty five or forty minutes later.

The individual seen by Jane Tanner was carrying a barefoot child seconds away from the room from which a barefoot child would be found missing.
Had Jane Tanner been just five seconds earlier she would very likely have walked into him head on.  Had Jez Wilkins not stopped to speak with Gerry, who had just left the apartment after checking on the children, it is very likely he too would have met him head on.
There is no logical route from the creche to where he was seen ... but there is a very logical route directly from the McCann apartment.

Goncalo Amaral played down that sighting ... why?

Jane Tanner suffered years of abuse because of what she had witnessed ... why?

I have seen it written that very often the only evidence of an abduction is eye witness testimony.  Jane Tanner was an eye witness to a man carrying a child away from the immediate scene where a child vanished.
It is not rocket science to work it out.

Had the McCanns returned home to find their television gone and a man had been seen carrying a television away at the same location Jane saw the man carrying the barefoot child ... the deduction is the same for both instances one hypothetical and one fact.

Bad analogy, in a holiday resort carrying kids in the evening is not suspicious, TVs would be.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Benice

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1293 on: February 24, 2017, 11:55:56 AM »
Kate said it was unusual and, allegedly, raised her concerns the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Gerry in the Panorama programme commented that they thought his children had been sedated. After coming home from Portugal they had the twins tested to see if they had been drugged.

Are you saying you know the McCann's children and sleeping patterns better than them?

No - I'm saying that it was only Madeleine's disappearance that caused the McCanns to wonder whether the twins had been drugged.  Obviously they had never been in this situation before to make comparisons.   IMO The reason why the twins didn't wake up - was because they were deeply asleep and simply slept through any noise  going on around them - as toddlers often do.  Later drug tests found no evidence of sedation.

Must go out now.

 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline faithlilly

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1294 on: February 24, 2017, 12:05:08 PM »
Kate knew her child well enough to say that she had not woke and wandered ... yet there are those who know better.

However not me.....so your point?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1295 on: February 24, 2017, 12:31:03 PM »
However not me.....so your point?

You agree that Madeleine did not wake and did not wander.  Progress of a kind. 
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1296 on: February 24, 2017, 01:15:23 PM »
Kate knew her child well enough to say that she had not woke and wandered ... yet there are those who know better.

She also seemed to think her child was capable of locating the unlocked patio door, exiting it and setting off in search of her parents. That's why the door was left unlocked, wasn't it, if Fiona Payne is to be believed?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1297 on: February 24, 2017, 02:03:32 PM »
She also seemed to think her child was capable of locating the unlocked patio door, exiting it and setting off in search of her parents. That's why the door was left unlocked, wasn't it, if Fiona Payne is to be believed?
What were Fiona's words?
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Offline The Singularity

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1298 on: February 24, 2017, 03:17:39 PM »
Very nearly to ten years since this very tragic incident happened. I have a lot of professional respect for Mark Williams-Thomas, he did finally shine a light into the dark crimes that Savile committed. It is no surprise that the McCanns have spoken out against him following his opinion that she wandered out of the holiday apartment. That's all it is though, an opinion just like everyone else because actual facts are very hard to come by. 

It's as good a theory as some of the others I have seen over the last ten years, some of them have been absolute shockers. The one fact that everyone tends to agree on is that she vanished from the apartment, with apparent no trace.

Having said that, the Scotland Yard investigation which is due to end in March of this year are in the best position to have working theories as they are in collection of all the possible leads and facts. They are still working on the theory that she was abducted to order which was a theory that surfaced very early on in the investigation but lost an incredible amount of credibility following the publication of an intelligence report that included the carpet bombing of Belgium. Prior to Shrimpton's little addition, the theory of organised abduction did hold water.

It's still a theory that from my perspective is conducive and far more believable. However as with all the theories, lacks any concrete evidence to back it up. It is not outside the realms of possibility that aspects of that fateful evening have been misleading.

The case remains very tragic. In ten years, we are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine than we were seven days after she went missing. I think Mark Williams-Thomas' opinion should be considered of value. He has shown in the past to be meticulous with investigating, an example being the Savile exposure and although there is nothing to investigate as such in the Madeleine case, he can draw on experience and  research.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1299 on: February 24, 2017, 03:57:01 PM »
Very nearly to ten years since this very tragic incident happened. I have a lot of professional respect for Mark Williams-Thomas, he did finally shine a light into the dark crimes that Savile committed. It is no surprise that the McCanns have spoken out against him following his opinion that she wandered out of the holiday apartment. That's all it is though, an opinion just like everyone else because actual facts are very hard to come by. 

It's as good a theory as some of the others I have seen over the last ten years, some of them have been absolute shockers. The one fact that everyone tends to agree on is that she vanished from the apartment, with apparent no trace.

Having said that, the Scotland Yard investigation which is due to end in March of this year are in the best position to have working theories as they are in collection of all the possible leads and facts. They are still working on the theory that she was abducted to order which was a theory that surfaced very early on in the investigation but lost an incredible amount of credibility following the publication of an intelligence report that included the carpet bombing of Belgium. Prior to Shrimpton's little addition, the theory of organised abduction did hold water.

It's still a theory that from my perspective is conducive and far more believable. However as with all the theories, lacks any concrete evidence to back it up. It is not outside the realms of possibility that aspects of that fateful evening have been misleading.

The case remains very tragic. In ten years, we are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine than we were seven days after she went missing. I think Mark Williams-Thomas' opinion should be considered of value. He has shown in the past to be meticulous with investigating, an example being the Savile exposure and although there is nothing to investigate as such in the Madeleine case, he can draw on experience and  research.

MWT also believes Oscar  Pistorious is innocent

Offline The Singularity

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1300 on: February 24, 2017, 04:54:20 PM »
MWT also believes Oscar  Pistorious is innocent

No he doesn't, he did in fact say:

Quote
I believe the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp was a tragic accident.

I am in no doubt that Oscar loved Reeva and had no intention to kill her. On that fateful morning he reacted instinctively.

Not that this has any relevance does it to his opinion of what happened to Madeleine?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1301 on: February 24, 2017, 05:33:56 PM »
Very nearly to ten years since this very tragic incident happened. I have a lot of professional respect for Mark Williams-Thomas, he did finally shine a light into the dark crimes that Savile committed. It is no surprise that the McCanns have spoken out against him following his opinion that she wandered out of the holiday apartment. That's all it is though, an opinion just like everyone else because actual facts are very hard to come by. 

It's as good a theory as some of the others I have seen over the last ten years, some of them have been absolute shockers. The one fact that everyone tends to agree on is that she vanished from the apartment, with apparent no trace.

Having said that, the Scotland Yard investigation which is due to end in March of this year are in the best position to have working theories as they are in collection of all the possible leads and facts. They are still working on the theory that she was abducted to order which was a theory that surfaced very early on in the investigation but lost an incredible amount of credibility following the publication of an intelligence report that included the carpet bombing of Belgium. Prior to Shrimpton's little addition, the theory of organised abduction did hold water.

It's still a theory that from my perspective is conducive and far more believable. However as with all the theories, lacks any concrete evidence to back it up. It is not outside the realms of possibility that aspects of that fateful evening have been misleading.

The case remains very tragic. In ten years, we are no nearer to finding out what happened to Madeleine than we were seven days after she went missing. I think Mark Williams-Thomas' opinion should be considered of value. He has shown in the past to be meticulous with investigating, an example being the Savile exposure and although there is nothing to investigate as such in the Madeleine case, he can draw on experience and  research.

Arguably safest to trust the shelved enquiry, which ruled out 'woke and wandered'.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1302 on: February 24, 2017, 06:46:12 PM »
Arguably safest to trust the shelved enquiry, which ruled out 'woke and wandered'.

How did they rule it out? Was it impossible? Did they somehow prove that it didn't happen? Or did they actually not pay it much attention?

As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm

Do they say why it was 'a remote hypothesis' or why it was 'highly unlikely physically'? I can't find any more information on this.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1303 on: February 24, 2017, 06:53:25 PM »
How did they rule it out? Was it impossible? Did they somehow prove that it didn't happen? Or did they actually not pay it much attention?

As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm

Do they say why it was 'a remote hypothesis' or why it was 'highly unlikely physically'? I can't find any more information on this.
The quote from the report "As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared."  So it was not entirely ruled out.  To climb the gates could have been difficult, to open the gates could have been difficult for a 3-4 year old.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Mark Williams-Thomas suggests Madeleine woke, wandered and was abducted.
« Reply #1304 on: February 24, 2017, 07:29:23 PM »
The quote from the report "As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared."  So it was not entirely ruled out.  To climb the gates could have been difficult, to open the gates could have been difficult for a 3-4 year old.

Most child safety gates are recommended for use up to 2 years of age. Many children can climb over them or open them before that age, however.

I had to take my baby gates down at 14 months because the little terror learnt how to climb over them, at which point they became more dangerous than not having them.
https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/children-parenting-190/child-health-safety-first-aid-62/902246-do-you-know-stairgates-have-use-all.html

My son is two and a half and can now open all the stair gates in the house. We have left them there purely to keep the dogs separate.
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/749319-Stair-gates-At-what-age-do-you-not-need-them?pg=1

It's quite possible that Madeleine could open the ones at home, in which case she would have been instructed to close them behind her because of her siblings.
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