Author Topic: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review  (Read 37630 times)

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AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #120 on: June 01, 2013, 01:12:56 AM »

 one of the potential uses was to undertake their own investigations (and yes, that was right in the earliest days). Any parent would do the same if they thought (or were being persuaded) that others could do a better job than the people currently in charge.
Sure, but have they done a better job ?

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #121 on: June 01, 2013, 01:18:40 AM »

 one of the potential uses was to undertake their own investigations (and yes, that was right in the earliest days). Any parent would do the same if they thought (or were being persuaded) that others could do a better job than the people currently in charge.
Sure, but have they done a better job ?

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

We are discussing motivation back in 2007?

How would the McCanns know the future?

All that they were concerned with at that time was getting as many people searching for their child, doing as much as was practically possible to recover their child.

This topic is about the setting up of the fund and my point is that the motivation for that was at least in part the perceived incompetence of the PJ.


But to answer the off-topic point you have made. One thing is clear, the constant awareness building, the pressure (at least partly boosted by the fund), the translations it afforded etc persuaded the parents to lobby for a review by SY and persuaded the govt to initiate that inquiry which now does in fact seem to be identifying aspects of the PJ inquiry which were not followed up properly.



Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #122 on: June 01, 2013, 01:24:22 AM »

What about Madeleine abducted not from bed, but from outside, searching for her parents? Is not supporting Mr and Mrs McCann also supporting the abductor ?
--------------------------------------------------

IMO she was abducted from her bed.
You're not answering...
Abduction from bed lacks forensic corroboration. Like Eddie's alerts..
For disappearance from the street there's some evidence though.

Any chance of seeing that evidence of abduction from the street? Its getting to be time for bed and I really don't want to miss it.

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #123 on: June 01, 2013, 01:41:55 AM »
I will look in for the evidence later Anne Guedes. Its late and my bed beckons.

I hope it will be worth the wait.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #124 on: June 01, 2013, 01:53:26 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #125 on: June 01, 2013, 01:59:11 AM »
I will look in for the evidence later Anne Guedes. Its late and my bed beckons.

I hope it will be worth the wait.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware your bed was expecting you.
It's simple : witnesses agree in seeing a man carrying a little girl  whom all witnesses, except for one who only saw legs, agree also in thinking it could very well have been Madeleine.
That's evidence !

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #126 on: June 01, 2013, 02:00:09 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

That really is a non-argument.

Sometimes things have to be organised just in case the child is not found.

Can you not even appreciate that?

You consider the worst and hope for the best but in considering the worst you have to make plans.


Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #127 on: June 01, 2013, 02:05:14 AM »
I will look in for the evidence later Anne Guedes. Its late and my bed beckons.

I hope it will be worth the wait.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware your bed was expecting you.
It's simple : witnesses agree in seeing a man carrying a little girl  whom all witnesses, except for one who only saw legs, agree also in thinking it could very well have been Madeleine.
That's evidence !

Oh dear, was that what you have kept me up for.

That is evidence of abduction I agree (though some rather odd people do not believe it is) but it is no more evidence of abduction from the street than it is from the apartment.

There is no indidcation in the evidence which you have just referred to of where the child was taken from. It could equally have been the street or the apartment or any other place for that matter.

I really was expecting more from you when you were so disparaging in your post to Benice and decried her idea of abduction from the apartment. But I see you have offered nothing whatsoever to prove that the street was more likely. Absolutely zilch as they say.

What a waste of time.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #128 on: June 01, 2013, 02:24:54 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

That really is a non-argument.

Sometimes things have to be organised just in case the child is not found.

Can you not even appreciate that?

You consider the worst and hope for the best but in considering the worst you have to make plans.
I agree if treated like magic thought : you plan against the worst hoping secretly that, thanks to this, the best will come.

Offline gilet

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #129 on: June 01, 2013, 03:08:30 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

That really is a non-argument.

Sometimes things have to be organised just in case the child is not found.

Can you not even appreciate that?

You consider the worst and hope for the best but in considering the worst you have to make plans.
I agree if treated like magic thought : you plan against the worst hoping secretly that, thanks to this, the best will come.

Nothing whatsoever to do with magic. What a peculiar thought?

You plan because planned action is more intelligent and usually more productive than random action.
 

Offline Carana

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #130 on: June 01, 2013, 09:41:45 AM »
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

John Stalker was apparently oblivious of the rules of judicial secrecy. Perhaps that isn't surprising as the PJ was leaking like a sieve, although he should have done a bit of homework before spouting.

What exactly should they have "broken ranks" about?

Kate and Gerry had support to help them handle the baying wolves of the press pack and to try to keep the media focused on the search; the T7 didn't. I find it totally understandable that the T7 did not want the media pack camped on their doorsteps, and anything they said would have been twisted in any case.

As witnesses, they weren't allowed to talk about the investigation and could have faced legal consequences if they did.

Matt and Dave Payne did reply to a journalist late June and look what happened there:



Madeleine Case - A Pact of Silence SOL
 
By Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim
30 June 2007

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html


Mathew Oldfield, one of the elements of the group, is back in England. He reacts with surprise upon the contact of Sol, but he does not avoid the conversation: "We drank. We were on holiday. So what?".


Matt's innocent reply was used to intimate that they were pissed as newts. Sometime around that time the myth that they had consumed 14 bottles of wine that evening was launched - and is still blithely repeated as fact by certain quarters.


When David Payne stated that there was an agreement that Kate and Gerry should deal with the press and refused to engage further, this was somehow made to sound as if they had some sinister secret to cover up.

"We have a pact. This is our matter only. It is nobody else's business", says David Payne, another element with the group.

In reality, in context, he was being quizzed about Murat having been made arguido. If Murat had been charged (which he never was: he was never even arrested), if Dave had said anything more, it might have jeopardised a fair trial.


Offline Carana

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #131 on: June 01, 2013, 10:10:51 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

The initial searches led nowhere. She hadn't been found (alive or dead). Days and weeks were passing with no positive news.

Of course, she might have been found any day... but planning ahead to continue to keep a high profile in case she wasn't found seems to me to be a recognition that finding her might take longer than expected and keeping a constructive focus.

If she had been found, then future media events or other planned publicity could have easily been cancelled or transformed into a celebration of thanks that she had been.


Offline Benice

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #132 on: June 01, 2013, 10:32:22 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

The initial searches led nowhere. She hadn't been found (alive or dead). Days and weeks were passing with no positive news.

Of course, she might have been found any day... but planning ahead to continue to keep a high profile in case she wasn't found seems to me to be a recognition that finding her might take longer than expected and keeping a constructive focus.

If she had been found, then future media events or other planned publicity could have easily been cancelled or transformed into a celebration of thanks that she had been.

This is true.   The organisers of events planned for the future do so hoping and praying that nothing will happen to cause the event to be cancelled.

In the McCann's case  - the opposite is true.  They organise future events hoping and praying that something will happen so that they CAN cancel them.


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #133 on: June 01, 2013, 10:57:57 AM »

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

The initial searches led nowhere. She hadn't been found (alive or dead). Days and weeks were passing with no positive news.

Of course, she might have been found any day... but planning ahead to continue to keep a high profile in case she wasn't found seems to me to be a recognition that finding her might take longer than expected and keeping a constructive focus.

If she had been found, then future media events or other planned publicity could have easily been cancelled or transformed into a celebration of thanks that she had been.

This is true.   The organisers of events planned for the future do so hoping and praying that nothing will happen to cause the event to be cancelled.

In the McCann's case  - the opposite is true.  They organise future events hoping and praying that something will happen so that they CAN cancel them.


Focusing on a goal, with objectives and concrete action steps, may well have been part of Alan Pike's advice.
The alternative would have been to break down in a heap of misery, which wouldn't have helped the search at all.

Pick yourselves up. There's no proof that she's dead.

Set your goal, work out the objectives and sub-objectives, and the action steps needed to work forward.

I'll never understand why Paulo Reis suddenly found this suspicious. Perhaps he'd be influenced by PJ "leaks".


« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 12:30:51 PM by Carana »

Offline xtina

Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
« Reply #134 on: June 01, 2013, 11:09:30 AM »
carana quote
In reality, in context, he was being quizzed about Murat having been made arguido. If Murat had been charged (which he never was: he was never even arrested), if Dave had said anything more, it might have jeopardised a fair trial.


Off topic ..but feel it gives me the opportunity to ask the question  if any of the posters on here are related or close to the mccs..

I have often thought it odd ..the way some are so over protective of them ....as if taken too  personal ...rather than just being a mcc supporter..

Odd Dave ....and not David Payne.............as if you know him personally...[hope u dont mind me asking]
 
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.