How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?

[Benice]

We can make an educated guess.

JT wasn't guessing - she was describing what she saw.  She was there, we were not.

[faithlilly]

True, & it also depends on what type of recall JT has, some people have photographic memories & are able to describe what they have seen in much more detail than others. Seen from the side, a man carrying a child, perfectly possible for her to have seen bottom of PJ legs of the child, even if legs weren't full length.

Then we will have to agree to differ.

Now if Tanner's powers of observation and skill in recall are as highly honed as her sighting would suggest why couldn't she remember Gerry being on the other side of the road ?

[Mrs. B]

Oh I had missed that.

So Amaral decided against THe reconstruction in 2007 ... and mentions it in his book

The team of investigators, of which Amaral was the coordinator, decided it.

Amaral's book - "The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices"

[Benice]

Then we will have to agree to differ.

Now if Tanner's powers of observation and skill in recall are as highly honed as her sighting would suggest why couldn't she remember Gerry being on the other side of the road ?

Because that is not where she remembers seeing him.  And she hasn't changed her mind about that.

[faithlilly]

Yes, such a pity Amaral & the PJ decided against doing a reconstruction in 2007, wasn't it?

Neither Amaral or the PJ had any part in the decision not to stage a reconstruction in 2007, but of course you know that already.

So if the McCanns and their tapas friends were willing to do a reconstruction in 2007, without it being televised as that is not done in Portugal, why weren't they willing to go back in 2008 ?

[faithlilly]

You don't need to go to Portugal to reconstruct a man carrying a little girl in pajamas. 
All the details are known so that could be done anywhere.  IMO

The archiving report sets out exactly why a reconstruction at the exact location of the sighting was needed :

1 – The physical, real and effective proximity between Jane Tanner, Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, at the moment when the first person walked by them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, in our perspective, strange that neither Gerald McCann nor Jeremy Wilkins saw her, or the alleged abductor, despite the exiguity of the space and the peacefulness of the area;
 
2 – The situation concerning the window to the bedroom where Madeleine slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to Kate. It seemed then necessary to clarify if there was a draught, since movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which, eventually, could be verified through the reconstitution;
 
3 – The establishment of a timeline and of a line of effective checking on the minors that were left alone in the apartments, given that, if it is believed that such checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, at least, very difficult to reunite conditions for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said abductor, with the child, namely through a window with scarce space. It is added that the supposed abductor could only pass, through that window, holding the minor in a different position (vertical) from the one that witness JANE TANNER saw (horizontal);
 
4 – What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. – the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings – and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy – at around 10 p.m.;
 
5 – The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.

[faithlilly]

Because that is not where she remembers seeing him.  And she hasn't changed her mind about that.

So Gerry is wrong then ?

[Mrs. B]

So who is claiming that Amaral a) was NOT part of the team of investigators or b) that he's lying when he states:

Amaral's book - "The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices"

[Mrs. B]

You don't need to go to Portugal to reconstruct a man carrying a little girl in pajamas. 
All the details are known so that could be done anywhere.  IMO

No, as the facts of the case shows, you don't need that in this day & age

Mr Redwood said "evidence that she is alive stems from the forensic view of the timeline" that there was the opportunity for her to be taken.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9225801/Scotland-Yard-urges-Portuguese-to-repoen-Madeleine-McCann-search.html

[sadie]

Faith

So Gerry is wrong then ?

We have altready accertained that Gerry remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez almost certianly got it right..  Didn't you read it Faith?

Purleaze lets not start this all over again!


From:  Sadies Theory thread

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1327.15  Reply 27 (unless things get deleted!)
 
It is the same alleyway corner that Jane very definitely  indicates on the video.  THE ALLEYWAY CORNER

 

  @ 10.08 (suggest view from before 10.00).  Then Jane srying at 12.30
 
I think Gerry remembered part crossing the road and forgot the change of direction back to the alleyway corner. 
The confusion in his mind after the trauma of realising that Madeleine had been taken, wiped part of the memory away.  I suffered similar problems after my little boy died from his brain tumour.  It went on for months, in my case.
 
Jez is very clear in his rogatory statement drawing.  THE ALLEYWAY CORNER   
 
Some extracts from Jez wilkins Rogatory Statement below:
My emboldening and colour
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
 
SNIP/-
Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner. Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period.

When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter.   I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him..  As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar.
From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.
/SNIP-


SNIP/-
Q. Relative to the time we conversed;
I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions.
The conversation lasted for approximately three to five minutes. We spoke of the care of children and how they were getting along. He told me something like 'he was on night duty'. I explained to him that I was returning to the apartment as my son was now sleeping. I assumed that Gerry was off to dine with the group in the Tapas bar, but I cannot precisely say this came from him or if I figured this out from our previous conversations regarding the checking system for the children. I remember that Gerry told me if he had stayed another week, he would likely do as I was doing and would stay with the children one night. It appeared as though he was jealous of what I was doing, but given that he was with a big group, he felt the obligation to meet with them every night, and the chosen location was the Tapas bar. I believe that there was some sort of agreement with the tapas Bar as they appeared to have a reservation every night and it was impossible for other guests to book at spot there.

I do not know if we were face to face or side to side when this conversation occurred. As I had the pram with me I was rocking it so my son could sleep, it seems to me that I was in the downward direction, but it is possible that I was in the opposite direction.

I do not remember having seen anyone else at this time besides Gerry. After leaving each other, Gerry walked downward in the direction of the Tapas Bar and I began to walk in the other direction, up the pathway. I turned left at the crossing and passed the apartment. I did not meet anyone else during my walk and once in my apartment, I did not venture out again.

/SNIP-
 
 
As I said before:
The statement says that Jez left the little side street car park (across the road from the tapas reception) and saw Gerry walking on the other side the street.  This means  that Gerry had left the steps and was thru the garden gate walking towards the Tapas as Jez saw him, so they did NOT meet at the steps / gate ... but considerably further down

 

This confirms it all, Gery remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez got it right.  THere is another drawing illustrating where Jez said thgey talked.  Will post it if you cant be bothered to go and find it.

Also this drawing done by Jez, clearly shows that he and Gerry were talking on the corner of the alleyway just south of 5A gate.

[faithlilly]

The team of investigators, of which Amaral was the coordinator, decided it.

Amaral's book - "The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices"

That does not make it clear who made the ultimate decision.

Anyway Mrs B, do you not think that the details that necessitated clarification with a reconstruction in 2007, and set out in the archiving report which I have posted,  could just as easily have been clarified in 2008, without any danger to the McCanns and their friends ? That is, of course, if they were telling the truth.

[faithlilly]

No, as the facts of the case shows, you don't need that in this day & age

Mr Redwood said "evidence that she is alive stems from the forensic view of the timeline" that there was the opportunity for her to be taken.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9225801/Scotland-Yard-urges-Portuguese-to-repoen-Madeleine-McCann-search.html

Forensic examination of the timeline perhaps but the PJ weren't looking at time but rather space and that couldn't be done anywhere else but where the event happened.

[faithlilly]

Faith
We have altready accertained that Gerry remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez almost certianly got it right..  Didn't you read it Faith?

Purleaze lets not start this all over again!


From:  Sadies Theory thread

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1327.15  Reply 27 (unless things get deleted!)
 
It is the same alleyway corner that Jane very definitely  indicates on the video.  THE ALLEYWAY CORNER

 

  @ 10.08 (suggest view from before 10.00).  Then Jane srying at 12.30
 
I think Gerry remembered part crossing the road and forgot the change of direction back to the alleyway corner. 
The confusion in his mind after the trauma of realising that Madeleine had been taken, wiped part of the memory away.  I suffered similar problems after my little boy died from his brain tumour.  It went on for months, in my case.
 
Jez is very clear in his rogatory statement drawing.  THE ALLEYWAY CORNER   
 
Some extracts from Jez wilkins Rogatory Statement below:
My emboldening and colour
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
 
SNIP/-
Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner. Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period.

When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter.   I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him..  As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar.
From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.
/SNIP-


SNIP/-
Q. Relative to the time we conversed;
I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions.
The conversation lasted for approximately three to five minutes. We spoke of the care of children and how they were getting along. He told me something like 'he was on night duty'. I explained to him that I was returning to the apartment as my son was now sleeping. I assumed that Gerry was off to dine with the group in the Tapas bar, but I cannot precisely say this came from him or if I figured this out from our previous conversations regarding the checking system for the children. I remember that Gerry told me if he had stayed another week, he would likely do as I was doing and would stay with the children one night. It appeared as though he was jealous of what I was doing, but given that he was with a big group, he felt the obligation to meet with them every night, and the chosen location was the Tapas bar. I believe that there was some sort of agreement with the tapas Bar as they appeared to have a reservation every night and it was impossible for other guests to book at spot there.

I do not know if we were face to face or side to side when this conversation occurred. As I had the pram with me I was rocking it so my son could sleep, it seems to me that I was in the downward direction, but it is possible that I was in the opposite direction.

I do not remember having seen anyone else at this time besides Gerry. After leaving each other, Gerry walked downward in the direction of the Tapas Bar and I began to walk in the other direction, up the pathway. I turned left at the crossing and passed the apartment. I did not meet anyone else during my walk and once in my apartment, I did not venture out again.

/SNIP-
 
 
As I said before:
The statement says that Jez left the little side street car park (across the road from the tapas reception) and saw Gerry walking on the other side the street.  This means  that Gerry had left the steps and was thru the garden gate walking towards the Tapas as Jez saw him, so they did NOT meet at the steps / gate ... but considerably further down

 

This confirms it all, Gery remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez got it right.  THere is another drawing illustrating where Jez said thgey talked.  Will post it if you cant be bothered to go and find it.

Also this drawing done by Jez, clearly shows that he and Gerry were talking on the corner of the alleyway just south of 5A gate.

Had we ?  Well that's a step forward.

Odd anyone ever thought there was any need for a review when they could have simply come to you eh sadie  ?{)(**

[AnneGuedes]

No, as the facts of the case shows, you don't need that in this day & age

Mr Redwood said "evidence that she is alive stems from the forensic view of the timeline" that there was the opportunity for her to be taken.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9225801/Scotland-Yard-urges-Portuguese-to-repoen-Madeleine-McCann-search.html

Which facts show what ?
There was opportunity after 9:30 as well.

[Mrs. B]

LOL You don't think you can program in "space" in a virtual reconstructions done on computers?

Even the simplest interior decorating/garden design programs do that, & DID so in 2007 too.