Were the previous burglaries at Ocean Club Garden related to the abduction?

[AnneGuedes]

Mark Warner had a duty to warn guests to take special care and they failed abysmally.

Shall we do the genealogy of responsibility ? Isn't anyone supposed to think and act for himself ? There's a creeping mania of blame nowadays, as if the world could be divided into victims and executioners, as societies  are either mushrooms eaters or mushrooms non eaters.

[Mrs. B]

I deal with Rental Property on the European Continent, and I know how easy it is to get copy keys.  I do it myself on occasions, and have never been asked to prove who I am.  I also know that keys get lost by visitors, and I wouldn't know if they were crooks or not.  I generally believe them.
And then I keep a firm eye on the property just in case.  I very much doubt that The Ocean Club do that.

And we are not only talking about the people with DIRECT access to keys, it can be relatives, friends etc of people who had access to keys.  How hard would it be to "borrow" a key for half an hour from anyone of them?

[faithlilly]

I know which keys they are Anne, and yes, they can be copied provided the locksmith has the correct machinery. Criminals tend to have a pretty good idea about this & even locksmiths have a price.

Yes they do Mrs B and I'm sure the reward money would have suited him quite nicely. After all he could claim he had no knowledge of what the key was to be used for therefore he would not be directly involved in the crime and eligible for the million pound reward.

[Redblossom]

No, this key could be reproduced anywhere without code in a couple of minutes. This could be why those locks aren't in use any more. I still have one though and was robbed (when at home!) by someone getting in with some bankcard.

OK, thanks for the info, I wasnt aware it was very easy, I was going off an old news article from thr now closed News of the World, so cant find the original


But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key"-and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."

[AnneGuedes]

I know which keys they are Anne, and yes, they can be copied provided the locksmith has the correct machinery. Criminals tend to have a pretty good idea about this & even locksmiths have a price.

In Portugal these locks were very vulgar and all locksmiths had the device to copy them. No use to corrupt. Nowadays locks are sophisticated : the same lock has 2 or more different keys (2,3,4...). The "2 turns" key will only open 2 turns. The "4 turns" one opens in any case. Very convenient when you lend your key to someone who loses it. You don't have to change the lock.

[John]

Not aware any staff could take keys in the evenings outside working hours or that any were not returned by the end of the working day. And no MW staff members refers to this happening. Unless you think its possible one of the superiors/keykeepers are suspect.Their criminal records will have all been checked too I would have thought. None of them afaiaw from the files were ever flagged up. Not saying its impossible, just that the speculation has no basis in anything apart from possibility.

You don't need to have access outside working hours Redblossom.   Getting a key was the easiest thing in the world, copy it and put the original back.

In any event, who needs a key when the occupants leave the window unlocked and the shutters unlocked as the McCanns did?

[Mrs. B]

Some people value their freedom more than money & it's difficult to enjoy wealth when you're behind bars for the next 25 years.

[Redblossom]

You don't need to have access outside working hours Redblossom.   Getting a key was the easiest thing in the world, copy it and put the original back.

OK, yes, I see what you mean. Putting this on the backburner myself, for various reasons.

And yes,good point, why use a key for the front door which was in a lit area and might be seen by residents  including the tapas group being there on their many checks, more so than an unlit dark entrance through the gate and unlocked patio doors, and where visual from the Tapas Bar was almost non existent, as shown in the channel 4 documentary and others, and as if anyone had their eyes glued on it all night.

Edited

[DCI]

You don't need to have access outside working hours Redblossom.   Getting a key was the easiest thing in the world, copy it and put the original back.

In any event, who needs a key when the occupants leave the window unlocked and the shutters unlocked as the McCanns did?

So where did the key come from, that was used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment?

Another little niggle, I have. Why is Sylvia Baptista so high profile, in this investigation? She was only the Maintenance Services Director 8-)(--)
I presume she would have been responsible for all keys! Was she asked where they were kept, and checked?

[Eleanor]

So where did the key come from, that was used to get into Mrs Fenn's apartment?

Another little niggle, I have. Why is Sylvia Baptista so high profile, in this investigation? She was only the Maintenance Services Director 8-)(--)
I presume she would have been responsible for all keys! Was she asked where they were kept, and checked?

I don't think we ever saw her answer to that one.  Presuming that she was even asked.

[John]

I probably asked this question before...cannot remember if I got an answer though.

Given the previous break ins at the Ocean Club resort, why didn't the McCanns sue Mark Warner for failure to properly ensure their security whilst using their facilities?

Or was it a case of keeping them on side to ensure their cooperation?

[Redblossom]

I probably asked this question before...cannot remember if I got an answer though.

Given the previous break ins at the Ocean Club resort, why didn't the McCanns sue Mark Warner for failure to properly ensure their security whilst using their facilities?

Or was IG a case of keeping them on side to ensure their cooperation?

how can they sue for lapse in security when they  left their back door open? And what is IG?

[Eleanor]

I probably asked this question before...cannot remember if I got an answer though.

Given the previous break ins at the Ocean Club resort, why didn't the McCanns sue Mark Warner for failure to properly ensure their security whilst using their facilities?

Or was it a case of keeping them on side to ensure their cooperation?

Probably six of one and half a dozen of the other.  Neither of them were actually to blame.  So why waste time and money on a dead duck.
No one expected someone to steal a child.

[stephen25000]

Perfect.  I ask Stephen25000 if he thinks someone could have had a key, and he replies that he doesn't believe in airy fairy abductions.
This is why it is not possible to debate with these people.  I normally don't bother because I don't give a rat's ar.. to what they think.  So this has just proved my personal thoughts.  You can't debate with them.

More to the point, your idea of 'debate' is that people have to agree with you. That isn't debate and this isn't 'just another thought you know'.

[Mrs. B]

Probably six of one and half a dozen of the other.  Neither of them were actually to blame.  So why waste time and money on a dead duck.
No one expected someone to steal a child.

I don't think such a lawsuit would have been successful either way, as they did add an element of risk to it themselves by leaving the children, even if they did check them regularly. I don't even think it would have been successful if they'd been using a baby listening service provided by the establishment.