Translations translations and then some...are they reliable or biased?

[Carana]

menino(a) refers to sex.
criança, feminine gender, refers to age.
"criança" is never translated "boy" or "girl"  but "child".
CB said "little boys" > rightly translated "meninos" > back to English "boys" (PJ) or "children" (Ines).
If she said "children" > "crianças", no alternative > back to English "children", no alternative.
If nevertheless you consider CB meant that Madeleine, though "active and sociable", "paid more attention to the children of her group" than ? to the children of other groups ?, then don't forget that the other children were babies (between 4 and 12 months).

I find the original somewhat ambiguous. I'm wondering if there wasn't a mix-up when the officer typed it up: line 55 is missing, so something seems to have gone wrong. I'm not really surprised that the translators were scratching their heads. 

The intended contrast might not have been about children in any other group, nor about more attention paid to boys as opposed to girls, simply that although she was quiet on the first day, she was fairly active and sociable, and got on well with the other kids in her group.

[Carana]

[quote off topic removed]

This thread is about translation issues.

All I was trying to point out is that confusion is possible between witnesses, "interpreters", the PJ officer trying to understand... and various other translators trying to make sense of what appears on paper to render the original back into English.

Recorded interviews would seem - to me - to be the way forward.

[Redblossom]

Did you figure out yet who doctored cat bakers  statement in the translation from portuguese to english? judging from your ignoring my previous post, I guess not, so I gather you are not accusing anyone anymore, good job

[DCI]

Did you figure out yet who doctored cat bakers  statement in the translation from portuguese to english? judging from your ignoring my previous post, I guess not, so I gather you are not accusing anyone anymore, good job

No, did you. And they were doctored, no matter how hard you try and turn it round!
As you are on ignore, I only see your replies to others, most of the time. Just looked to see, if you had anything to add to the thread.

[Benice]

Total hogwash but then again I'm not in the least surprised.  For the benefit of Dave, the archiving report is a statement of fact, not an opinion.  As for being cleared hmm let's see, cleared of what??

Just watch it all change when a kiddies skeletal remains are found in downtown Luz!

So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?

Quote:

The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.

None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless.
End Quote

 

[Angelo222]

So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?

Quote:

The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.

None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless.
End Quote

We were discussing the Portuguese archiving report Benice, why are you quoting from Lord Justice Tugendhat?  As an aside, Tugendhat erred in making that pronouncement since nobody knows when Madeleine 'disappeared' except the perp if there is one.

Back on topic, there can be no doubt that decades of dictatorship moulded the police in Portugal into what we have today.  A far cry from what we in the home counties are used to.

[Mr Gray]

We were discussing the Portuguese archiving report Benice, why are you quoting from Lord Justice Tugendhat?  As an aside, Tugendhat erred in making that pronouncement since nobody knows when Madeleine 'disappeared' except the perp if there is one.

Back on topic, there can be no doubt that decades of dictatorship moulded the police in Portugal into what we have today.  A far cry from what we in the home counties are used to.

that is the archiving report....

[Angelo222]

So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?

Quote:

The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports.

End Quote

A convenient version of it in English and from what I can see is not a true reflection of the original Portuguese decision. 

This is a more accurate translation.

"The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine."

Anyone with the most basic grasp of the English language will see at a glance that the term "seems to result from" is not the same as "is apparent".

www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9

[Angelo222]

So would you evaluate the following as a statement of fact?

Quote:

None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless.
End Quote

Also, the second paragraph should translate as.

"To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."

It looks to me that words have been left out in Benice's version above??

Two translations of the same document on two different websites and both apparently by Astro yet offering two different interpretations. That for me is a concern.

www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9

[Admin]

Also, the second paragraph should translate as.

" To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."

It looks to me that words have been left out in Benice's version above??

Two translations of the same document on two different websites and both apparently by Astro yet offering two different interpretations. That for me is a concern.

www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9

I have relocated this discussion due to its significance within the translations debate.

Your observation is duly noted in that the phrases "is apparent" and "seems to result from" do not represent the same understanding of the original document. 

[Benice]

We were discussing the Portuguese archiving report Benice, why are you quoting from Lord Justice Tugendhat?  As an aside, Tugendhat erred in making that pronouncement since nobody knows when Madeleine 'disappeared' except the perp if there is one.

Back on topic, there can be no doubt that decades of dictatorship moulded the police in Portugal into what we have today.  A far cry from what we in the home counties are used to.

As it came from Judge Tug - I think it is reasonable to assume that it was provided by the McCann's lawyers and is therefore an extract from the professionally translated files and is not a translation by an amateur on the internet.

I know which one I would consider to be accurate.

[Mr Gray]

Also, the second paragraph should translate as.

"To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media - before the police - was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous."

It looks to me that words have been left out in Benice's version above??

Two translations of the same document on two different websites and both apparently by Astro yet offering two different interpretations. That for me is a concern.

www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi9

the one you have posted reads more like a google translation...perhaps that explains the difference

[John]

My own experience of Spanish and Portuguese tells me that the CPS cannot be depended upon to correctly translate foreign documents into English and Courts are being misled in this area.  If you need something important translated do it yourself.

Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.

"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."

which correctly translates as...

The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4645.jpg


To put this into common English, it is plain to see that the Prosecutors who signed off the Report were making the point that the McCanns did not appear to be involved because of various factors.  The first translation where it was stated that their non-involvement was apparent due to those same circumstances is simply wrong.

[Mr Gray]

My own experience of Spanish and Portuguese tells me that the CPS cannot be depended upon to correctly translate foreign documents into English and Courts are being misled in this area.  If you need something important translated do it yourself.

Here is the actual extract from the Portuguese Archiving Report.

"O não envolvimento dos arguidos pais da Madeleine em qualquer actuação penalmente relevante parece resultar das circunstâncias objectivas de não estarem no apartamento aquado do seu desaparecimento, no seu comportamento normal adoptado até esse desaparecimento e posteriormente como, amplamente decorre do depoimento das testemunhas, das análise das comunicações telefónicas e também das conclusões das perícias, principalmente dos Relatórios do FSS e do Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal."

which correctly translates as...

The non-involvement of the accused parents of Madeleine in any relevant criminal conduct appears from the objective circumstances of them not being in the apartment when she disappeared, the normal behavior adopted by this disappearance and later as widely from the testimony of witnesses, the analysis of telephone communications and also the findings of investigations, mainly reports of the FSS and the National Institute of Legal Medicine.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4645.jpg


To put this into common English, it is plain to see that the Prosecutors who signed off the Report were making the point that the McCanns did not appear to be involved because of various elements which he stated.

So what does that say for the accuracy of the mccanns statements which were translated

[stephen25000]

As it came from Judge Tug - I think it is reasonable to assume that it was provided by the McCann's lawyers and is therefore an extract from the professionally translated files and is not a translation by an amateur on the internet.

I know which one I would consider to be accurate.

Of course you do.