Author Topic: The Cracked Mirror.  (Read 118037 times)

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Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #300 on: July 23, 2013, 05:10:30 PM »
But that applies to everyone in and around PdL that night who, for whatever reason,  cannot 'demonstrate their innocence' and therefore according to you must  be regarded as suspects.

You can't just apply your theory to the McCanns.  If it's a legal requirement then it must apply to everyone.

Who said anything about a legal requirement? It is a proven police investigative technique that law enforcement use in the event of a person's disappearance which is to look at the friends and family look at the family and need them to be "ruled out", or in other words, prove their innocence.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #301 on: July 23, 2013, 05:20:23 PM »
Can I just say, how can they be elimimated if they don't even know what the crime was??

Because the child was missing they were suspected of being involved in her disapperance. Chilldren just don't vanish into thin air!

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #302 on: July 23, 2013, 06:04:24 PM »
It's one of the mysteries of debating the McCann case online, the lengths people will go to defend their pre conceived ideas about the involvement of the parents.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
Almost 400 years after, human mentalities haven't changed, though lots of discoveries occurred.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #303 on: July 23, 2013, 06:37:33 PM »
Albertini.  This is where you and I have a fundamental difference in perspective.

Only because you do not understand.

The fundamental role of the police service in this context is to solve the crime.

Correct

The police will of course view each "person of interest" as potentially guilty and will see if they can find any evidence which will suggest guilt (of whatever crime they are investigating).  However, the onus is firmly on the police to find that evidence.  It is emphatically not on the "person of interest" to prove their innocence.

Incorrect! As has been stated countless times potential suspects are asked questions by investigators such as:

Where were you on the night of the 3rd?
Who were you with on the night of the 3rd?
What were you doing there on the night of the 3rd?

Or in Kate McCann's case, 48 questions which she refused to answer to demonstrate her innocence.

If the suspect can answer these questions to the satisfaction of the investigators, which fits in with the times, places and evidence found (amongst other things) at the crime scene then they have "proven their innocence".

If they cannot to use the police terminology "rule themselves out" by not demonstrating their innocence they remain suspects until such time as evidence is found to incriminate them (see the Stephen Lawrence case as an example), they remain suspects until clear and verifiable evidence comes along which rules them out (at which point they have proven their innocence), or another suspect is found with clear evidence against him or her (in which case the original suspects have their innocence proved by the weight of evidence against someone else). 

In the McCann case, the police have not managed to find any proof of wrongdoing by the McCanns or by any of the "Tapas 7" and there the matter rests. 

No, you are right (to a point in this case) and  you must ask why that is? The best way to describe it is to run through the scenario and put oursleves in the mind of an investigator.

The first question is to look at the investigation itself and ask:

"Was the investigation completed"?

The answer is no, it was not completed, after all the archiving report clearly stated the investigation was "disturbed".

Then you would ask:

"Why was the investigation disturbed?"

The answer to that question again comes from the archiving report which states it was disturbed by the group's refusal to take part in a reconstruction.

Then as an investigator you must ask:

"Why would the group refuse to take part in an investigation which has been set up to look for their friend's missing child?"

You look at the evidence from the email exchanges when they were asked to take part and th reasons the group gave for not attending. These comprise of issues such as they do not see the benefit it will add to the investigation and they think the PJ are trying to set up their friends.

Then you ask:

"Are these credible reasons for not taking part when the group know the importance of the reconstruction to the investigation into their friend's missing child?"

The answer to that question is:

It is not normal for witnesses to dictate the reasons of why a reconstruction is needed, which ultimately is designed to help find their friend's missing child. Why should they question the way the investigation is seeking to move forward? They are doctors not policemen.

An investigator would conclude:

They would not expect us how to tell them to treat a patient so why are they questioning how we go about our work?

So in answer to that question, the querying of operational techniques - and what it will add to the investigation-  is not a valid reason for the witnesses not to attend.

Ok, so what about the issue of "fit up". You  then see that the group were offered, at the reconstruction, the presence of legal representation, the Foreign Office and leicestershire Police.  So you can only conclude refusing to take part for fear of fit up is not a valid reason to not attend given the evidence.

So you are left feeling that it is highly suspicious as to why they would want to kill the reconstruction which seeks to move the investigation forward and generate new evidence when the reasons they have given for not taking part do not stand up to investigative scrutiny.

An investigator would ask:

"Why are they seeking to not take part in the recon and kill the investigation with reasons which are weak and have no basis in factual reality"?

And then conclude that the group refused to take part specifically and deliberately to prevent the generation of new evidence.

Then you must ask

"Why would they do that"?

You would conclude that there are only three possible outcomes of a reconstruction. 

The first one is that no new evidence or leads would be generated, in which case, the status quo remains and there is no damage to the group in taking part, and there is no justifiable reason why the group should not take part.

The second is that evidence and leads would be generated which would help police find an abductor. As this is what the group have been stating this is what has happened all along there is no damage to the group in taking part, (indeed it would help the McCann's prove their innocence) and there is no justifiable reason why the group should not take part.

The third option is that new leads and evidence would be generated against the parents. Then there is damage to the group in taking part and a justifiable reason why the group should not take part.

So an investigator looking at these scenarios could only conclude that they did not attend and the only logical reason for that fits in with option three. It is the only one which makes sense of their decision not to attend.

As a consequence the McCann's have not only been unable to prove their innocence, but also the suspicion increases against them as a result of theirs and their friend's decision to kill the reconstruction and in turn the investigation.

So in answer to your point about lack of evidence the reason there is no evidence against them is because the investigation was/is incomplete and that it is only incomplete due to their refusal to take part in the reconstruction.

Which is highly suspicious in itself given my reasoning above.

The McCanns et al do not have to do anything at all, and their is no obligation on them to "prove their innocence" to the police, to any forumite or indeed to your goodself.

Wrong! Because once again the archiving report and Leicestershire Police's statement specifically say otherwise, don't they?

It's not me that has said it is the AG and LP, i am explaining to you what they mean.




Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #304 on: July 23, 2013, 06:50:01 PM »
1) I believe amongst other places Kate McCann quoted it verbatim in her book Madeleine.

2) Good for you! Let's see what happens when the investigation is complete.

1 So you are not sure. It sounds like another forum myth to me.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #305 on: July 23, 2013, 07:00:55 PM »
1 So you are not sure. It sounds like another forum myth to me.

She did and it isnt

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #306 on: July 23, 2013, 07:05:23 PM »
She did and it isnt

So what is the verbatim quote that is in the book. Just saying its true doesn't count for much.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #307 on: July 23, 2013, 07:08:18 PM »
So what is the verbatim quote that is in the book. Just saying its true doesn't count for much.

Ferryman gave you the exact wording a page or two back.

It is there trust me if it wasn't he would know and take great delight in telling me@

On July 7 2008 Mrs Justice Hogg gave judgement in the Family Division of the High Court regarding the attempt by Kate & Gerry McCann to gain access to all the Leicester Police documents regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
The judgement was by agreement between the parties and was made in open court.
M/S Kate McCann in her book Madeleine has now provided an excerpt from the official submission of Leicester Police to the court regarding the matter and outlining the reasons why they could not agree to provide the documents. Signed by the assistant chief constable of Leicestershire it runs:
“While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.”
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 07:18:10 PM by Albertini »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #308 on: July 23, 2013, 07:13:16 PM »
So what is the verbatim quote that is in the book. Just saying its true doesn't count for much.

oh dear, i am not in the business of saying things are true  which can easily be checked as true or false

“While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence which clears them of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.”



Assistant Chief Constable Leicestershire Police

And yes it is in Kates book! She said she was staggered.

Chapter 21 closing the case, sorry have no page number as i have the kindle version

So, you see, not a forum myth

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 07:17:21 PM by Redblossom »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #309 on: July 23, 2013, 07:40:17 PM »
Ferryman gave you the exact wording a page or two back.

It is there trust me if it wasn't he would know and take great delight in telling me@

On July 7 2008 Mrs Justice Hogg gave judgement in the Family Division of the High Court regarding the attempt by Kate & Gerry McCann to gain access to all the Leicester Police documents regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
The judgement was by agreement between the parties and was made in open court.
M/S Kate McCann in her book Madeleine has now provided an excerpt from the official submission of Leicester Police to the court regarding the matter and outlining the reasons why they could not agree to provide the documents. Signed by the assistant chief constable of Leicestershire it runs:
“While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.”

Well hallelujah, the police werent able to be railroaded by bloody lawyers into divulging information on a case to the SUSPECTS at the time! You couldnt make it up. Mind you the BBC and others gave them airtime while suspects to ask people to come forward to THEM with info even  if they  had already spoken to police on their personal phone line. Unprecedented. And the divs at the BBC passed it off as a police number
 @)(++(*

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 07:44:40 PM by Redblossom »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #310 on: July 23, 2013, 08:52:28 PM »
oh dear, i am not in the business of saying things are true  which can easily be checked as true or false

“While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence which clears them of involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.”



Assistant Chief Constable Leicestershire Police

And yes it is in Kates book! She said she was staggered.

Chapter 21 closing the case, sorry have no page number as i have the kindle version

So, you see, not a forum myth


I will check this as it seems a  very odd thing to say.... you do realise that if the MCCanns had been charged they would have the right to see everything that LP had under the rules of disclosure

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #311 on: July 23, 2013, 08:55:40 PM »

I will check this as it seems a  very odd thing to say.... you do realise that if the MCCanns had been charged they would have the right to see everything that LP had under the rules of disclosure

Check it, its all there, as for rules  of disclosure from police, ask someone else, i have no knowledge, but in any case they werent charged, so moot? At the time they HAD NO RIGHT as suspects to demand to see all the  Uk police files, brass neck?
 >@@(*&)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:03:00 PM by Redblossom »

Online Eleanor

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #312 on: July 23, 2013, 09:00:58 PM »
Not at all.   If Madeleine is still alive she us probably with people who don't even know the original abductor.

As far as the McCanns innocence is concerned Kate well and truly messed that one up by refusing to answer police questions.  Little did she know then that everything would soon be in the public domain.

Please don't do this.  The Questions were asked many months after Madeleine disappeared, and were posed simply to implicate her parents.  There was not one single question that could have helped to find Madeleine.
And of course, if you had actually read The Questions, then you would know that Kate had already answered most of them on the previous day.
I can hardly believe that you are doing this, unless you believe that we are all half a shilling worth of six pence.  Or unless you think that this will add to the debate.  It won't for me because it doesn't even make sense. But then you know that.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #313 on: July 23, 2013, 09:07:25 PM »
And of course, if you had actually read The Questions, then you would know that Kate had already answered most of them on the previous day.
-----


This is untrue, why are you still peddling it? do cite  anything that shows she answered MOST of  those questions the daybefore? It does not exist. the ONLY thing in her arguido interview answers is that she  couldnt answer more than she already did about the DOG alerts, NOTHING else, qs 43 to 47,  so NO, it is a lie to say she answered most of the questions put before

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:09:53 PM by Redblossom »

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #314 on: July 23, 2013, 10:34:11 PM »
How do you know he's not laughing at something his children are saying or doing. 

People do smile and laugh in times of grief - it's not a sign of anything sinister or proof that they are not grieving.  They may not smile anywhere near as often as they did before tragedy struck  but it does happen.    I speak from experience - and I'm sure lots of other people can say the same.

So you've had an abducted child who may be in the hands of a paedophile have you Benice ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?