Author Topic: The Cracked Mirror.  (Read 118397 times)

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Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #420 on: July 24, 2013, 10:15:49 PM »
No "imo" here, either you're Ms Tanner or you imagine you are.
Perhaps you should be careful before saying ex-inspector Amaral is a liar. Even if he's not a CR's client.
After Ms Tanner's recognition, the AG and the judge Frias went to Portimao Tribunal and decided to order a raid on Mr Murat's villa, which happened early morning the following day.

From Amarals book
JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT

Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat, anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the description she painted previously?
unquote

IMO That is nothing like what actually happened.    The whole thing was a shambles. 

And if JT identified Murat as the abductor - then why did Amaral NOT get a witness statement from her.  Even the lowliest rookie in the PJ would know that that would be the first thing to do if she had made a positive identification.   

Common sense dictates that the reason why he didn't bother was because a statement from her saying she was NOT able to identify Murat as the abductor was of no use to him.    The man is a complete liar.



 


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #421 on: July 24, 2013, 10:36:16 PM »
From Amarals book
JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT

Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat, anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the description she painted previously?
unquote

IMO That is nothing like what actually happened.    The whole thing was a shambles. 

And if JT identified Murat as the abductor - then why did Amaral NOT get a witness statement from her.  Even the lowliest rookie in the PJ would know that that would be the first thing to do if she had made a positive identification.   

Common sense dictates that the reason why he didn't bother was because a statement from her saying she was NOT able to identify Murat as the abductor was of no use to him.    The man is a complete liar.
we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance.
is totally fictitious. Here is the original and in a post above my translation about the "rather unofficial proceeding".
Antes dessa decisão, procedemos a uma diligência de reconhecimento pouco formal.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #422 on: July 24, 2013, 10:44:58 PM »

And if JT identified Murat as the abductor - then why did Amaral NOT get a witness statement from her.  Even the lowliest rookie in the PJ would know that that would be the first thing to do if she had made a positive identification.   

Common sense dictates that the reason why he didn't bother was because a statement from her saying she was NOT able to identify Murat as the abductor was of no use to him.    The man is a complete liar.
Benice, your detestation of Mr Amaral blinds you, I'm afraid. Can't you read that the proceeding was unofficial ? The police isn't allowed to do this kind of recognition operation without the spotted man knowing he's spotted. This is a fundamental right. But, in this case, the police pondered a little girl's safety was at stake. Can't you understand that sometimes the police does unofficial things, not because of corruption but because there is force majeure ? And  can't you understand that there was no way Ms Tanner's saying would be recorded ?
The question was simple : is it worthwhile to destroy a man's life with a raid etc. ?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 10:46:35 PM by AnneGuedes »

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #423 on: July 24, 2013, 10:48:27 PM »
we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance.
is totally fictitious. Here is the original and in a post above my translation about the "rather unofficial proceeding".
Antes dessa decisão, procedemos a uma diligência de reconhecimento pouco formal.

Well blame the interpreter  not me.

Quote
The following chapters are translated from the French version of the book
By AnnaEsse 
Unquote

And regardless of whether the translation is strictly correct or not - do you really think that Jane Tanner would deny being taken back to the police station, and sitting there with other policemen and a translator whilst her statement was drawn up - if that is what happened?   That's just plain silly. 


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #424 on: July 24, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »
Benice, your detestation of Mr Amaral blinds you, I'm afraid. Can't you read that the proceeding was unofficial ? The police isn't allowed to do this kind of recognition operation without the spotted man knowing he's spotted. This is a fundamental right. But, in this case, the police pondered a little girl's safety was at stake. Can't you understand that sometimes the police does unofficial things, not because of corruption but because there is force majeure ? And  can't you understand that there was no way Ms Tanner's saying would be recorded ?
The question was simple : is it worthwhile to destroy a man's life with a raid etc. ?

Amaral claims that Jane Tanner FORMALLY identified Murat.  'Formally' means with official authorisation.

The PJ officers didn't seem to know it was unofficial otherwise they would not have phoned in to see if JT needed to sign anything.

And even if it was unofficial in your opinion, it is still a massive lie to say that Jane Tanner FORMALLY identified Murat.  She did not.




The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #425 on: July 24, 2013, 11:10:06 PM »
Well blame the interpreter  not me.

Quote
The following chapters are translated from the French version of the book
By AnnaEsse 
Unquote

And regardless of whether the translation is strictly correct or not - do you really think that Jane Tanner would deny being taken back to the police station, and sitting there with other policemen and a translator whilst her statement was drawn up - if that is what happened?   That's just plain silly.
Benice, you're supposed to make sure a translation is right before using it. This is basic. A translation of a translation is risky. Now you have to understand that the translators did the job for free and that translating takes a lot of time.
Have a look at "plain silly" and try to open your mind ! Ms Tanner would have signed a document the police would have asked her to sign. But the police didn't want it. Why ? Because what they did was illegal ! Isn't that clear ? Ms Tanner's recognition was just an indication, it wasn't sufficient, fortunately, to hang Mr Murat.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #426 on: July 24, 2013, 11:19:35 PM »
Amaral claims that Jane Tanner FORMALLY identified Murat.  'Formally' means with official authorisation.

The PJ officers didn't seem to know it was unofficial otherwise they would not have phoned in to see if JT needed to sign anything.

And even if it was unofficial in your opinion, it is still a massive lie to say that Jane Tanner FORMALLY identified Murat.  She did not.
No, Inspector Amaral said she was peremptória em reconhecer Robert Murat como o raptor, which means she was "peremptory, categorical in recognizing RM as being the abductor".
Things are not "unofficial in (my) opinion", this is in the original text !
Nothing authorizes you to state people lie without proving it.

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #427 on: July 25, 2013, 12:05:06 AM »
No, Inspector Amaral said she was peremptória em reconhecer Robert Murat como o raptor, which means she was "peremptory, categorical in recognizing RM as being the abductor".
Things are not "unofficial in (my) opinion", this is in the original text !
Nothing authorizes you to state people lie without proving it.

So how was the word FORMALLY wrongly translated.  What should it have been?

As for your claim that nothing authorises me to state people lie without proving it.   Are you being serious?  How many times are the McCanns and the group accused of lying without any proof?  As far as I'm concerned I do provide proof and in this case as Jane Tanner was there and he wasn't and her description of what happened has not been challenged by any of the police officers who were also there - then she is telling the truth imo.

If JT lied about not identifying Murat -  then where is Amaral's proof of that?  According to you he has none because there is no record - but that hasn't stopped him of accusing her of lying which he does every time he claims she identified Murat - through various Portuguese media channels has it?   But I suppose that's OK in your eyes.




 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #428 on: July 25, 2013, 01:16:22 AM »
"peremptória" means "categorical", not "formally".
I'm amazed by so much passion, Benice ! I may doubt what X or Y said, but I wouldn't say "X or Y lied", because it's a complex notion. Lying to hide one's guilt isn't the same as lying to cheat someone, for example.
If I'm hiding a Jew in my house during WW2 and a nazi bangs on my door and ask if I saw a Jew, I'll say no. Stricto sensu or according to Kant, this is a lie.
Give a reason why inspector Amaral would pretend Ms Tanner did recognize the carrier whereas she said she didn't. What was his interest in this ? He wasn't the one who decided the raid on Mr Murat's villa. Only the Ag and the judge in charge with respect of civil rights could give that order.
Had Ms Tanner not recognized Mr Murat, the raid on his villa wouldn't likely have occurred.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #429 on: July 25, 2013, 08:43:05 AM »
If you think JT was telling the police officer that in 2007 she had identified Murat as the abductor, then explain why that officer doesn't even acknowledge that remarkable admission?  Just as remarkable is the fact that no other police officers who read that statement saw what you see either.
 
With regard to the van surveillance.- where is the witness statement?   And why is this positive identification,  (which without a doubt would have been the most important evidence Amaral had obtained against Murat) NOT mentioned as the No.1 reason for Murat being made an Arguido by the AG in the Final report?
 
I'm pretty sure that if Amaral resided in the UK and was telling this huge lie to all and sundry in TV chat shows and elsewhere as he does in Portugal, JT would have sued him.   
 
However IMO she has contented herself with the fact that Kate states quite clearly in her book that Amaral's claim that she positively identified Murat as the abductor 'is completely untrue'..    So what is more to the point is  -  if that is a big fat lie, why hasn't Amaral been shouting it from the rooftops, calling press conferences etc etc to announce that Kate McCann is a liar, has libelled him in her book and that he can prove.it.   I suspect nothing would have given him greater pleasure - and yet not a peep from him.
 
There is not a single credible reason why JT (or any of the others) would agree to risk ruining their own children's lives, by perjuring themselves and becoming accomplices in the disposal of the body of a dead child.      They would all have to be severely mentally deranged to even think about it.      As far as I know none of them were 'sectioned' on their return home, in fact I believe they all resumed their highly responsible jobs.

Hey, I'm only working from and explaining what Jane Tanner ACTUALLY SAID, not what you want her to say to fit your pre conceived ideas.

In your heart you also must know it rings true as other members of the group at the same time were identifying Murat as well.

As Anna has explained the whole process was in, Anna's words, illegal, although i was always under the impression it was more inadmissible, but  i bow to Anna as she knows far more about Portuguese law than i do.

That's why i would imagine there are no files in the PJ files and that's why it was Bob Small in the van and not Amaral.

Amaral can't win can he. The supporters of the family are now shouting "typical Amaral, making a mess of the id and doing something illegal".

When in actual fact he was moving heaven and earth at that point to try and find the child as fast as he could.

Can you imagine the outcry from the same family supporters had Murat actually had the child and Amaral had not done this?

In relation to what Kate says in her book, as she is a proven and self admitted liar (page 206 i believe of the book Madeleine) I'm not inclined to believe what she says and as i have said the other members of the Tapas mob were identifying Murat at the same time.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 09:05:53 AM by Albertini »

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #430 on: July 25, 2013, 10:49:07 AM »

Give a reason why inspector Amaral would pretend Ms Tanner did recognize the carrier whereas she said she didn't. What was his interest in this ?

He wasn't the one who decided the raid on Mr Murat's villa. Only the Ag and the judge in charge with respect of civil rights could give that order.

Had Ms Tanner not recognized Mr Murat, the raid on his villa wouldn't likely have occurred.

So you are saying that permission was granted to search Murats villa because of JT's identification - even though according to you the surveillance operation was illegal and that is why there is no record of it.

Therefore that means that a Judge or the AG actually accepted - with no verifying documentation whatsoever,  verbal evidence, which they knew had resulted from an unlawful act by one of their own Police force -  and granted permission for Murat's villa to be searched on the strength of that illegally obtained verbal evidence  - in direct contravention of Murat's civil rights.    Really?     

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #431 on: July 25, 2013, 11:11:20 AM »
"peremptória" means "categorical", not "formally".
I'm amazed by so much passion, Benice ! I may doubt what X or Y said, but I wouldn't say "X or Y lied", because it's a complex notion. Lying to hide one's guilt isn't the same as lying to cheat someone, for example.
If I'm hiding a Jew in my house during WW2 and a nazi bangs on my door and ask if I saw a Jew, I'll say no. Stricto sensu or according to Kant, this is a lie.
Give a reason why inspector Amaral would pretend Ms Tanner did recognize the carrier whereas she said she didn't. What was his interest in this ? He wasn't the one who decided the raid on Mr Murat's villa. Only the Ag and the judge in charge with respect of civil rights could give that order.
Had Ms Tanner not recognized Mr Murat, the raid on his villa wouldn't likely have occurred.

Really Anne?  You seem to display equal or greater passion in defence of Amaral.

Offline Benice

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #432 on: July 25, 2013, 11:27:55 AM »
Hey, I'm only working from and explaining what Jane Tanner ACTUALLY SAID, not what you want her to say to fit your pre conceived ideas.

In your heart you also must know it rings true as other members of the group at the same time were identifying Murat as well.

As Anna has explained the whole process was in, Anna's words, illegal, although i was always under the impression it was more inadmissible, but  i bow to Anna as she knows far more about Portuguese law than i do.

That's why i would imagine there are no files in the PJ files and that's why it was Bob Small in the van and not Amaral.

Amaral can't win can he. The supporters of the family are now shouting "typical Amaral, making a mess of the id and doing something illegal".

When in actual fact he was moving heaven and earth at that point to try and find the child as fast as he could.

Can you imagine the outcry from the same family supporters had Murat actually had the child and Amaral had not done this?

In relation to what Kate says in her book, as she is a proven and self admitted liar (page 206 i believe of the book Madeleine) I'm not inclined to believe what she says and as i have said the other members of the Tapas mob were identifying Murat at the same time.

Maybe you should inform SY that Jane Tanner admitted in her statement that she had identified Murat as the abductor - as they seem to have missed that momentous news.
 
The idea that discrepancies can only indicate that someone is lying is wrong.  This is what the police officer interviewing Jane Tanner says on the subject:
 
Quote
4078    “It’s alright.  I can fully understand why you have so much frustration.  And, in as much as the part where Gerry thinks he was standing somewhere slightly different to where you saw him, well that, you know, people do see things from different perspectives”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And that, you know, it doesn’t matter.  You can only say what you can remember and as far as you can remember it.  And if it is different from how it was then things can be explained”.
Unquote
 
It is that fact that the sceptics always ignore - but insist that every single word of every statement is set in stone and can never be deviated from.    Fortunately at least the UK police are well aware that that is simply not the case - when you are dealing with people trying to recall events.
 
IMO Amaral was moving heaven and earth to get a conviction.  Whether it was in haste because the world was watching or whether it was normal procedure for him - he decided who was guilty first and then tried to fit the evidence round it instead of examining the evidence and then deciding who could be guilty on the strength of it.       
 
I'm not surprised Amaral kept well away from the unlawful surveillance.  Did Bob Small know he was participating in an illegal act?     

As a police officer, Amaral's blatent disregard for the law when it suited him, is disgraceful- especially when the McCanns and others were being warned of dire consequences if they did the same..  (secrecy laws?).
 
Your 'evidence' that Kate McCann is a proven liar is truly laughable.  By the same token the vast majority of the adult population must be proven liars too.   Who hasn't, at some time, changed or avoided an arrangement/appointment/date by giving a reason which was not strictly true or as in Kate's case was a slight exaggeration of the truth?   
 
Once again you will not allow the McCanns to do what you accept without question is perfectly normal for the rest of us.
 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #433 on: July 25, 2013, 11:35:45 AM »
Twist and spin, Benice, is of no use here.
There was no "permission" to be obtained from the AG and the Judge. They decide and order, that's their prerogative. The investigation is directed by the MP, this is something you don't want to admit, because Mr Amaral must be charged in order to discharge Madeleine's parents.
A tabloid "journalist" alerted the LC about suspicions she had concerning Mr Murat. He unfortunately lived in a house at walking distance and in the direction the walking carrier had taken. The police couldn't ignore this, but no AG orders a raid without much evidence if there's no emergency. A little girl was at stake, remember ? There was no time to organize a parade, that's why they used the van.
I don't know what they would have done if Ms Tanner had been categorical Mr Murat wasn't the carrier, but the fact she recognized his way of walking supported certainly the order to invade Mr Murat's privacy.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #434 on: July 25, 2013, 11:39:17 AM »
Really Anne?  You seem to display equal or greater passion in defence of Amaral.
I never howl with the wolves, do you ?