Author Topic: The Cracked Mirror.  (Read 118433 times)

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AnneGuedes

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #555 on: July 27, 2013, 09:06:07 PM »


Attorney-general Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro said the 14-month investigation had uncovered no evidence of a crime by any of the suspects or "arguidos".

Yes but you have to take into account the whole report and if you do so you'll see that there are many obscure points left. Like, for example, the mystery of the twins' deep sleep that both "parts" contemplated. An inquiry would have seriously investigated this, calling experts.

Offline sadie

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #556 on: July 27, 2013, 09:36:15 PM »
Yes but you have to take into account the whole report and if you do so you'll see that there are many obscure points left. Like, for example, the mystery of the twins' deep sleep that both "parts" contemplated. An inquiry would have seriously investigated this, calling experts.
Well why didn't they do it?

Offline Chinagirl

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #557 on: July 28, 2013, 01:55:46 AM »
Its all there in the files but Amaral couldnt finish the job because of political interference.

I have also reported this post for being factually incorrect.
A

Offline DCI

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Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #558 on: July 28, 2013, 01:58:41 AM »
I reported this comment several hours ago, on the grounds that this is being stated as a categorial fact, which is untrue.  However, as it is still showing, I assume it's been deemed acceptable.

Forum rules state:  "You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false....."  The post appears to breach this rule.

Perhaps it is considered lèse-majesté to report a moderator?

Seems like it depends on, who does the postings Chinagirl. Its getting a joke 8**8:/:
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Offline gilet

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #559 on: July 28, 2013, 07:33:12 AM »
Madeleine died on 3 may 2007.
This is not a fact as you seem to believe.

If you read the files to the conclusion then you would realise that the consensus after the full investigation, and not just the early part of the investigation which Amaral coordinated before being booted off the case for blabbing to the press (read his book where he tells us this as fact), was that this was simply one possibility which was deemed at the time more likely than others.

Your post is therefore incorrect.

I have also reported the post as inaccurate and asked why such inaccurate posts are allowed to stand for so long as they make a mockery of the desire to seek truth.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 07:36:17 AM by gilet »

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #560 on: July 28, 2013, 08:54:59 AM »
I will explain it. the AG report is quite consistent, it was written by an idiot.

Any idiot could see that the McCanns had no criminal part in Maddies fate and only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence.

Personal opinion combined with wishful thinking has no place here.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline sadie

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #561 on: July 28, 2013, 09:17:31 AM »
Quote from: davel on July 27, 2013, 08:56:01 PM
Quote
I will explain it. the AG report is quite consistent, it was written by an idiot.

Any idiot could see that the McCanns had no criminal part in Maddies fate and only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence.


only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence  I totally agree with that ... and The Law does.

And there was no chance for the Mccanns to have been criminally involved in Madeleines fate, that I can find.  Not one single anti / [ censored word ] / sceptic has brought a jot of evidence that the Mccanns were criminally involved in any way. 
Amaral had no evidence at all.

The Mccanns are innocent.  Guilt must be proven for them to be otherwise. 

And there is not a single piece of evidence against them


The Mccanns are innocent

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #562 on: July 28, 2013, 10:42:47 AM »
Do you really want to suggest a parallel?  Especially given that the initial investigation was not exactly the Met's finest hour.   And the suspects were a racist gang of thugs.  Who it seems were possibly "protected " by the police because they were white and the victim was black.  I am not sure the PJ would welcome such a comparison, but so be it. 

In the Lawrence case, the five suspects were arrested after a fortnight.  The charges were dropped a couple of months later after the CPS cited "insufficient evidence".  A subsequent private prosecution also failed.  The inquest jury returned a verdict after 30 minutes' deliberation of unlawful killing "in a completely unprovoked racist attack by five white youths"; this finding went beyond the bounds of their instructions.

It was suggested during the course of the Lawrence enquiry that the murder was racially motivated and that Lawrence was killed because he was black, and that the handling of the case by the police and Crown Prosecution Service was affected by issues of race. A public inquiry was held in 1998,[4] headed by Sir William Macpherson, that examined the original Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) investigation and concluded that the force was "institutionally racist" 

A BBC investigation alleged that the murder inquiry's Det. Sgt. John Davidson had taken money from known drug smuggler Clifford Norris, the father of David Norris, a chief suspect in the investigation.[67] Neil Putnam, a former corrupt police detective turned whistleblower, told a BBC investigation that Clifford Norris was paying Mr Davidson to obstruct the case and to protect the suspects.

You are correct that eventually two of the initial suspects were convicted. 

In the McCann case, the "suspects" did not even reach the stage of being arrested.  And indeed were only constitued arguidos because by mid September an upcome change in the regulations would have raised the bar significantly (i.e. that there would actually need to be evidence in order for the police to make an arguido).


Attorney-general Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro said the 14-month investigation had uncovered no evidence of a crime by any of the suspects or "arguidos".

You say:  I have a problem when people bring false and misleading opinions which are not supported by facts or evidence simply so they can cling to the belief that the McCann's are innocent.

I have a problem with people when presented with logic and reasoning, and examples and evidence who refuse to change their beliefs but are not able to support said beliefs and opinions with facts and evidence.


That, I am afraid, exists only in your opinion.  My interpetation of the facts, and of the law differ from yours.  The McCanns are under no obligation to "prove their innocence". 

If you have a problem with that, then it is your problem.

I have no idea why you think quoting superflous background info to the Lawrence case either counters my argument or indeed strengthens yours.

The detail of the case is irrelevant in the context of our discussion.

What is important is the broader outline of that case to provide demonstrative evidence to counter your false assumption that when there is no evidence to bring a suspect to court they are automatically "cleared".

As i pointed out there was no evidence against the Lawrence suspects, therefore under your assertion, they were "cleared".

However they were found guilty 19 years later.

The pertinent question which you have avoided like the plague is how your theory stacks up in the Lawrence case, when they were convicted of the crime after, using your theory, being cleared in 1993?

The facts of that case are that the lack of evidence against them did not clear them because subsequently they were convicted of the crime.

And that boils down to the fact that only a court can clear someone, not the police.

The real fact of the matter is that the Prosecutor's report said there was no evidence but they had not demonstrated their innocence, supported by the Assistant Cheif Constable of Leicestershire's statement in court.

And that is because whilst there was no evidence found in the incomplete investigation there was no evidence which specfically ruled them out of involvement either.

You claim to understand the law yet you are not only saying i am wrong, you are also saying that:

The Public Proescutor who wrote the report ( A professional lawyer)
The Portuguese Attorney General who validated the report (Portugal's most senior lawyer)
The Assistant Chief Constable Of Leicestershire and their lawyers who advised them
Lord Justice Hogg (who allowed the comments to be made in court)

Are all wrong and all know less about the law than you do.

So forgive me if appear not to be taking no for an answer but clearly your knoweldge of the law is less than the above mentioned legal and Judicial professionals who all stated the same.

You are free to believe what you want but when it is so manifestly wrong don't expeoct opthers to simply accept it as fact.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #563 on: July 28, 2013, 10:52:07 AM »
I will explain it. the AG report is quite consistent, it was written by an idiot.

Any idiot could see that the McCanns had no criminal part in Maddies fate and only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence.

Quote from: davel on July 27, 2013, 08:56:01 PM

only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence  I totally agree with that ... and The Law does.

And there was no chance for the Mccanns to have been criminally involved in Madeleines fate, that I can find.  Not one single anti / [ censored word ] / sceptic has brought a jot of evidence that the Mccanns were criminally involved in any way. 
Amaral had no evidence at all.

So what you are both saying, as i have stated in another post is that, legally, you two forum posters know more about the Law and how it works than:

The Public Prosecutor who wrote the report ( A professional lawyer)
The Portuguese Attorney General who validated the report (Portugal's most senior lawyer)
The Assistant Chief Constable Of Leicestershire and their lawyers who advised them
Lord Justice Hogg (who allowed the comments to be made in court)

Do you really think that if the prosecutor was wrong (or to use terms "an idiot") on such a fundamental and basic point of Law, the Attorney General Of Portugal, the most senior lawyer in Portugal, would have allowed such a manifestly untrue paragraph to be put in the report which he accepted?

Do you think the Assistant Chief Constable Of Leicestershire would have been allowed to make that comment in court either by his own lawyers or the Judge?

Or, as is actually the case, these legal professionals are right and you two (and other supporters of the McCann's) are simply wrong on this point either through your inability to understand it or because you deliberately want to misconstrue it to support your pre conceived beliefs in the McCann's?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #564 on: July 28, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »
Albertini states


And that boils down to the fact that only a court can clear someone, not the police

You just don't understand. A court cannot clear someone as you yourself has stated. You also seem to think that the Portuguese statements saying that the McCanns had not taken the opportunity to clear themselves  is the same as the Leicester statement saying they may or may not be involved in the crime. Leicester stated a fact, Portugal stated a stupid opinion.

Just again so it is clear...It would be impossible for the McCanns to prove their innocence.....  impossible

As you stated yourself, even though Stagg was acquitted by the court he was not found to be innocent until someone else confessed.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #565 on: July 28, 2013, 11:12:54 AM »
So what you are both saying, as i have stated in another post is that, legally, you two forum posters know more about the Law and how it works than:

The Public Prosecutor who wrote the report ( A professional lawyer)
The Portuguese Attorney General who validated the report (Portugal's most senior lawyer)
The Assistant Chief Constable Of Leicestershire and their lawyers who advised them
Lord Justice Hogg (who allowed the comments to be made in court)

Do you really think that if the prosecutor was wrong (or to use terms "an idiot") on such a fundamental and basic point of Law, the Attorney General Of Portugal, the most senior lawyer in Portugal, would have allowed such a manifestly untrue paragraph to be put in the report which he accepted?

Do you think the Assistant Chief Constable Of Leicestershire would have been allowed to make that comment in court either by his own lawyers or the Judge?

Or, as is actually the case, these legal professionals are right and you two (and other supporters of the McCann's) are simply wrong on this point either through your inability to understand it or because you deliberately want to misconstrue it to support your pre conceived beliefs in the McCann's?

There is no debate to be had.  Eddie reacted to a coconut shell

This is the relevant cite from the Operation Haven report of Wiltshire Police, to which I will link in an edit:

OFFICER X
and others, CO POWER states ‘my
understanding of the rules is that we should not
commit to non budgeted expenditure until the
proposition is passed by the States’.
 X completes X report in respect of
Exhibit JAR/6. In it X states that the sample was
not bone and not human, appearing instead to be
more like part of a large seed casing or part of
something like a small piece of coconut.


http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 11:22:39 AM by ferryman »

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #566 on: July 28, 2013, 11:25:12 AM »
Quote from: davel on July 27, 2013, 08:56:01 PM

only an idiot would expect anyone to have to prove their innocence  I totally agree with that ... and The Law does.

And there was no chance for the Mccanns to have been criminally involved in Madeleines fate, that I can find.  Not one single anti / [ censored word ] / sceptic has brought a jot of evidence that the Mccanns were criminally involved in any way. 
Amaral had no evidence at all.

The Mccanns are innocent.  Guilt must be proven for them to be otherwise. 

And there is not a single piece of evidence against them


The Mccanns are innocent

Further to this point Sadie, no one knows what happened to the child before 10:00 pm on May 3rd 2007.

What we do know is this:

There is no evidence to support the parent's assertion the child was abducted
There are no independent (i.e. from outside the parents and their friends) verification of their stories
The parents and the group's accounts of the events of that evening have been labelled, both by the Public Prosectuor under oath in Court, and the Judges in the book banning case, as "lies" and "incongruent"
The parents and the group would not reconstruct that night's events
The parents and their friends took this action knowing it would kill the investigation into the search for their missing child
There were indications from the dogs that someone had died in the apartment and on or around possessions belonging to the McCann's
Gerry McCann was on the verge of "cracking" according to Kate in her book, what was their to crack about?
Gerry McCann wanted to take flight and flee as fugitives across the border to Spain (page 254 Madeleine)

So whilst there is no evidence at this stage to bring charges against the parents before a court there are indications, requiring further investigation, the most important one being:

Why would innocent parents and their friends, the last people to see the child alive and well, lie about their actions, refuse to reconstruct them and seek to kill the investigation as a result?

What is the motive for them acting in this way?

That to me is the heart of the matter and requires further investigation.

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #567 on: July 28, 2013, 12:09:29 PM »
There is no debate to be had.  Eddie reacted to a coconut shell

This is the relevant cite from the Operation Haven report of Wiltshire Police, to which I will link in an edit:

OFFICER X
and others, CO POWER states ‘my
understanding of the rules is that we should not
commit to non budgeted expenditure until the
proposition is passed by the States’.
 X completes X report in respect of
Exhibit JAR/6. In it X states that the sample was
not bone and not human, appearing instead to be
more like part of a large seed casing or part of
something like a small piece of coconut.


http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

Can you tell me how these words denote a scientific fact:

appearing instead to be more like part of a large seed casing or part of something like a small piece of coconut

Absolutely no evidence as Gerry McCann would say.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #568 on: July 28, 2013, 12:21:21 PM »
Can you tell how to differentiate between a bulk standard blog and an official police report?

Offline Albertini

Re: The Cracked Mirror.
« Reply #569 on: July 28, 2013, 12:24:10 PM »
Can you tell how to differentiate between a bulk standard blog and an official police report?

The official police report does not state as fact it was coconut, does it?

The blog contains evidential testimoney direct from Lenny Harper.

Kepp going..... you'll get there.