Author Topic: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor  (Read 37257 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2013, 02:39:13 PM »
The British consul is no more in charge and why would the GNR officers read "Madeleine" ? Mrs McCann is so vague that denying wouldn't be difficult : Ah, X told me, I thought he meant, etc.
There's no Portuguese file about this and on this forum we've insisted on the basic necessity to refer to official files.
You can argue that Mrs McCann heard that..., but repeating triple hearsay as if it were a fact isn't acceptable.
I really doubt that the LC would have sent its files to the McCanns.

She even quotes a short passage from a letter from a distraught parent to the GNR. What did she do, invent it?

AnneGuedes

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 02:45:41 PM »
Kate states in her book that she read these reports of abuse of British childen in the files.   If you think she would so publically lie about that knowing it would expose her to the police as a huge liar  -  then that's your prerogative.    However, IMO such a belief can only be sustained if all semblance of common sense, logic and reasoned thought is removed from the equation and we accept that Kate McCann is a brain dead idiot. 


 
You don't have to go to these extremities. Kindly don't mention what Mrs McCann's assumes without corroboration as facts, that's all !

AnneGuedes

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 02:49:20 PM »
She even quotes a short passage from a letter from a distraught parent to the GNR. What did she do, invent it?
Ask her !

Offline sadie

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2013, 02:52:45 PM »
This is what the thread is about
BUMPED O.P.

For the only walk/drive back to 5A or any of the Tapas 9 apartments using the front way in, one had to enter via the car park entrance from the main road as shown in this photo. 

This is the view of the front door



Can you see it?   LOOK REALLY HARD   

Can you see the front door?  it's right in the middle of the photo


No-one can see it; cos it is recessed back completely out of sight for all the walk across the car park, right from the car park entrance to the open end of the walled paths.  This is the route that everyone has to take  to the centre of the building where starts the end of the paths that radiate out to all the apartments.


This is the view of the front door taken from the very end (dead end) of the walled pathway.  As can be seen the front door is very well recessed back and in the dark.    In this photograph the door well is slightly illuminated by photographers lights, but the whole area is very dark.  Not illuminated, as in Pat Browns photograph.  That search light was fitted much later (in time for Pat Browns photograph?)  And the surrounding trees cut down to give a clear view (for Pat Browns photograph?)



One thing that is not universially understood on the forum, is that as these apartments are built in a slope:-   

The ground of the walled pathway is at a lower level than the ground in the car park.  From memory, by the front door well and bedroom window, the wall is about chest height.    Whilst on the car park, ground is higher up that slope, so the wall is about thigh height.  Therefore Madeleine would have had to be handed UP to bundleman on the car park side of the wall, rather than down.

Offline Carana

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2013, 03:09:03 PM »
This is what the thread is about
BUMPED O.P.

Right... back to the invisible front door in that photo.

Offline sadie

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2013, 04:00:25 PM »
This is what the thread is about
BUMPED O.P.
To the sceptics:

With the front door being so obviously the best way in for a burglar/abductor

Why do you think that all the attention is being taken away from the front door?

stephen25000

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2013, 04:05:07 PM »
To the sceptics:

With the front door being so obviously the best way in for a burglar/abductor

Why do you think that all the attention is being taken away from the front door?


.....off topic moderated....

Pray tell what do you mean exactly by 'Why do you think that all the attention is being taken away from the front door?


« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 12:46:16 AM by John »

Redblossom

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2013, 09:42:46 PM »
She even quotes a short passage from a letter from a distraught parent to the GNR. What did she do, invent it?

Wheres the quote? What benice IIRC or someone else posted earlier as a quote wasnt one, it was KMs words

Sorry was from the other thread about getting in and out of the flat


Quote from: Luz on Today at 12:12:09 PM

Not in Portugal.
-----


Benice said, quote
The GNR records would prove you wrong.  The crimes were reported to the police.

This is an extract from a letter of complaint written by one of the parents to the GNR.
 
Quote:
 
It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up.  It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice................Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse......indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he's not stopped.
Unquote
 
That letter was sent to the GNR six months before Madeleine was abducted - and will be in their files.
 

Unquote





« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:49:58 PM by Redblossom »

Offline sadie

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2013, 11:16:43 PM »
And then there were the trees surrounding Block 5.  Half have been cut down now.  Just the eastern half where the Pat Brown photograph was taken.  Those on the western half had exactly the same trees but they remain standing.  They were NOT cut down

See new thread;
TREES and a NEW LIGHT. Pat Brown. Falsification?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1972.0

Offline Albertini

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 11:18:05 AM »
To the sceptics:

With the front door being so obviously the best way in for a burglar/abductor

Why do you think that all the attention is being taken away from the front door?

I didn't realise it was being taken away!

In the space of a week we have gone on this forum from believing the patio door was used (until we took into account Rachel's statement where she said the shutter was down on the patio door) to the window (except no evidence was found that it was open or that it had been used and that it would attract attention with someone leaping through and out of a window).

In fact was it not you ( i can't recall now) who said the door wouldn't have been used as it would have been impossible for an abductor to see if someone was watching him, which is why the shutters were used?

Are we now saying it is the front door with a key?

I ask the same question. If an abductor had used a key then either he has had one for a while for that apartment (which would be a huge coincidence that he had a key to the one apartment where a child was staying unsupervised?) or one was stolen or removed to be used or copied?

Is it viable that an abductor would rmeove a key, get it copied and then put it back? I think that is too risky.

Were any keys reported stolen or missing? Did anyone come forward in PDL to say they had copied a key like this one (which appears to be very distinctive)?

Offline Chinagirl

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2013, 11:34:19 AM »
Is it viable that an abductor would rmeove a key, get it copied and then put it back? I think that is too risky.

Yes; quite a viable proposition.  Happens all the time in burglaries all over the world.

Were any keys reported stolen or missing? Did anyone come forward in PDL to say they had copied a key like this one (which appears to be very distinctive)?


None of us can answer those questions as we were not the police doing the original investigation.  As for any locksmith voluntarily coming forward to say he had copied such a key, probably unlikely - we have been led to believe that there is a distinct uneasiness among the Portuguese populace to fully trust the police.  Such an attitude is not confined to Portugal, however.  Many people don't wish to "become involved with the police."  So no - I don't expect anyone to have volunteered that information, but I do wonder if the police even asked the question of the public.
A

Offline Albertini

Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 11:55:55 AM »
Is it viable that an abductor would remove a key, get it copied and then put it back? I think that is too risky.

Yes; quite a viable proposition.  Happens all the time in burglaries all over the world.

Were any keys reported stolen or missing? Did anyone come forward in PDL to say they had copied a key like this one (which appears to be very distinctive)?


None of us can answer those questions as we were not the police doing the original investigation.  As for any locksmith voluntarily coming forward to say he had copied such a key, probably unlikely - we have been led to believe that there is a distinct uneasiness among the Portuguese populace to fully trust the police.  Such an attitude is not confined to Portugal, however.  Many people don't wish to "become involved with the police."  So no - I don't expect anyone to have volunteered that information, but I do wonder if the police even asked the question of the public.

So are you suggesting that the abductor watched the Mccann's after their arrival and decided he must use a front door key if he wanted to abduct their child?

In that case he had what 4 days, to note the McCann's were there with children, then note their night time activities and leaving their children alone, find out where the keys were kept, take one without being seen - and run the risk of not knowing when the keys might be used thus potentially alerting MW staff to a key being taken, then get one copied and then put it back, again whilst not knowing when or how often the keys would be used or checked?

They did not need to go to the police. Given the McCann's have had their own private PI's for the last 6 years on the case one would presume that this is an area that would have been given much attention in their work.

So why haven't we heard of anything concrete in this regard?

You would expect the PI's have to have released either that info to the media, or indeed passed it on to the police, wouldn't you?

Equally the UK media has had an insatiable appetite for McCann related stories, do you not think someone with a key missing or had copied a key would have come forward to take Murdoch et al's shilling?

Can you imagine the splash in the UK papers had someone been discovered who had lost their key to 5A or someone who had copied a key just like it, thus validating the McCann's story?

It is inconceivable to believe the McCann's would keep such a key piece of evidence, which supports their claims, quiet.

How many burglaries around the world have the same level of media spotlight on them as the McCann case?

I think it is eminently viable, indeed probable, that had such a scenario unfolded someone by now would have come forward to admit having lost a key or cut one like it, and given the media's interest in the case and support of the parents, it would have been reported in the press.

Despite the doubts you have i would also think that if such evidence was presented to them the PJ would have no choice but to reopen the case if such evidence was in the possession of the PI's or the media.

Given we have heard nothing in this regard it must be safe to assume no one has come forward becuase a key was not taken.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 11:57:48 AM by Albertini »

Offline DCI

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2013, 12:49:53 PM »
This photo of Heri's shows just how far back the recess is to the front door.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 03:23:30 AM by John »
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AnneGuedes

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 12:55:10 PM »
The way in through the door with a key generates a limited number of suspects whereas the shutters/window way in generates an infinity of suspects.
Keys are always in restricted number and investigating each key's owner or depositor and Lagos key maker would likely lead to a suspect.

Offline DCI

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Re: THE FRONT DOOR - WAY IN AND WAY OUT for abductor
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 01:23:54 PM »

But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key"—and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."

Expert Locksmiths Says That There Would CERTAINLY Be TWO
of These Keys In Existence And That This Key is Almost
CERTAINLY A COPY!




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