Could the cadaver scent have been planted?

[Carana]

Does anyone have any evidence to show how long the residual scent lasts?

LOL Davel, scroll a few pages back.

[AnneGuedes]

we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

[Mr Gray]

LOL Davel, scroll a few pages back.

That's what I thought. So 1 year in abuilding with minimal disturbance or human intervention. So how long in a flower bed outside

[Carana]

Have you found in the files a proof that Prof Harrison MBE ignored the flat had been rented after the disappearance ?

No, as I can't find anything else in the files to indicate that the PJ knew themselves before late September.

[AnneGuedes]

Prof Harrison MBE had a long conversation with Major Sequeira. The idea he could ignore the flat had been occupied is rather unlikely because, when you read Prof Harrison's reports, you reckon he's careful and gives a great importance to details.
There's a tendency on this forum to mention only Mr Grime, easier to criticize than Prof Harrison MBE. But one shouldn't forget that Prof Harrison was present in all the dogs' searches. There's nothing surprising in there : he was the one who advised to call the dogs, he was very conscious the dogs came because of him and he assumed his responsibility. In a word, a gentleman.

[ferryman]

Prof Harrison MBE had a long conversation with Major Sequeira. The idea he could ignore the flat had been occupied is rather unlikely because, when you read Prof Harrison's reports, you reckon he's careful and gives a great importance to details.
There's a tendency on this forum to mention only Mr Grime, easier to criticize than Prof Harrison MBE. But one shouldn't forget that Prof Harrison was present in all the dogs' searches. There's nothing surprising in there : he was the one who advised to call the dogs, he was very conscious the dogs came because of him and he assumed his responsibility. In a word, a gentleman.

I'm critical of Harrison.

He sold the lie of the "enhanced" victim recovery dog.

That was unforgiveable.

He must have known that we, in Britain, don't send dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers.

Reverting back on topic, harrison said that that apartment 5a and the other holiday apartments might all benefit from inspection by the dog as it might indicate whether a body has been stored or moved to another location (sic) "for intelligence purposes".

Harrison understood that the dogs would not, by themselves, solve the crime unless, either a body was found, or traces of Madeleine's blood in a place where you might not expect to find it by innocent explanation!

[stephen25000]

I'm critical of Harrison.

He sold the lie of the "enhanced" victim recovery dog.

That was unforgiveable.

He must have known that we, in Britain, don't send dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers.

Reverting back on topic, harrison said that that apartment 5a and the other holiday apartments might all benefit from inspection by the dog as it might indicate whether a body has been stored or moved to another location (sic) "for intelligence purposes".

Harrison understood that the dogs would not, by themselves, solve the crime unless, either a body was found, or traces of Madeleine's blood in a place where you might not expect to find it by innocent explanation!

What precisely is your expertise in this field ?

[AnneGuedes]

I'm critical of Harrison.

He sold the lie of the "enhanced" victim recovery dog.

That was unforgiveable.

He must have known that we, in Britain, don't send dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers.

Reverting back on topic, harrison said that that apartment 5a and the other holiday apartments might all benefit from inspection by the dog as it might indicate whether a body has been stored or moved to another location (sic) "for intelligence purposes".

Harrison understood that the dogs would not, by themselves, solve the crime unless, either a body was found, or traces of Madeleine's blood in a place where you might not expect to find it by innocent explanation!

Ferryman, you may be critical concerning Prof Harrison MBE, but you shouldn't accuse him without supporting your accusation.
Prof Harrison knew Madeleine was alone in the flat and that accidents happen more frequently when a child is left alone than when he's not. He sent the dogs because he contemplated the possibility of an unattended death, regardless of cause. Those deaths are normally regarded as suspicious until otherwise determined by medical professionals.
Even a death from natural cause like a heart attack will be investigated if unwitnessed.

[Carana]

we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

A scent that he recongises. Yes, the decomposition of human / porcine matter. Until physical evidence is found, there is no way of knowing whether he was alerting the smell of a deceased human being or any other decomposing substances from a living person.

[AnneGuedes]

A scent that he recongises. Yes, the decomposition of human / porcine matter. Until physical evidence is found, there is no way of knowing whether he was alerting the smell of a deceased human being or any other decomposing substances from a living person.

No, Carana, the team Harrison/Grime never mentioned a risk the alerts' source could be a pig in putrefaction state.
As you surely know, Eddie was first trained with decomposing pig for substance and decomposing blood for fluid. But, crucial point and part of the training, after the dog detected human bodies, i.e recognized their specificity, he was trained to reject decomposing pig using it in training as what they call a "distractor". If the dog pays attention to it, he gets a strong "leave it" by the handler.
So, yes, no forensic material was able to identify the body whose scent Eddie caught immediately, marking this by a change in his behaviour, but you can't deny the reality of the death scent nor suggest it was coming from a rotten pig or from this artificial mixture of cadaverine and putrescine.

[ferryman]

Ferryman, you may be critical concerning Prof Harrison MBE, but you shouldn't accuse him without supporting your accusation.
Prof Harrison knew Madeleine was alone in the flat and that accidents happen more frequently when a child is left alone than when he's not. He sent the dogs because he contemplated the possibility of an unattended death, regardless of cause. Those deaths are normally regarded as suspicious until otherwise determined by medical professionals.
Even a death from natural cause like a heart attack will be investigated if unwitnessed.

Ferryman, you may be critical concerning Prof Harrison MBE, but you shouldn't accuse him without supporting your accusation.

Not so much the evidence, as the incontrovertible proof, has been wiped from the South Yorkshire Police "Freedom of Information" disclosure log.

All questions about Eddie and Keela have been removed from that log.

One question was about what training or assistance Eddie was given to assist him for his duties.

The answer was that Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with the Association of Police Chief's (ACPO) dog-training manual.  Then a link was given to that manual, which I've read, and which says nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers.

Rather, it explains in detail how training is set up and progressed in Britain

That was the same answer that all gave the lie to Grime's claim that Eddie has been involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.

The true number (revealed in that same answer) is 37!

I repeat (for the umpteenth time) that Harrison was handed a brief to consider that Madeleine had been murdered, and worked to it.

The question of greater interest (to me) is why Amaral lied that no one talked about murder.

They talked about little else ...

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf

[AnneGuedes]

Not so much the evidence, as the incontrovertible proof, has been wiped from the South Yorkshire Police "Freedom of Information" disclosure log.

All questions about Eddie and Keela have been removed from that log.

One question was about what training or assistance Eddie was given to assist him for his duties.

The answer was that Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with the Association of Police Chief's (ACPO) dog-training manual.  Then a link was given to that manual, which I've read, and which says nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human cadavers.

Rather, it explains in detail how training is set up and progressed in Britain

That was the same answer that all gave the lie to Grime's claim that Eddie has been involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.

The true number (revealed in that same answer) is 37!

I repeat (for the umpteenth time) that Harrison was handed a brief to consider that Madeleine had been murdered, and worked to it.

The question of greater interest (to me) is why Amaral lied that no one talked about murder.

They talked about little else ...

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf

Who removed and when ?
Inspector Amaral never suspected Madeleine could have been murdered in the flat. I don't think her parents suspected this either.
Prof Harrison studied the case and concluded, like you would have, I suppose, Madeleine could have been murdered out of the flat.

[Carana]

Prof Harrison MBE had a long conversation with Major Sequeira. The idea he could ignore the flat had been occupied is rather unlikely because, when you read Prof Harrison's reports, you reckon he's careful and gives a great importance to details.
There's a tendency on this forum to mention only Mr Grime, easier to criticize than Prof Harrison MBE. But one shouldn't forget that Prof Harrison was present in all the dogs' searches. There's nothing surprising in there : he was the one who advised to call the dogs, he was very conscious the dogs came because of him and he assumed his responsibility. In a word, a gentleman.

Harrison's report says nothing about whether 5A apartment had been rented or not. What makes you think that Major Sequeira would have known?

The meeting with him was to establish what searches had already been carried out and the methodology used.

[AnneGuedes]

Harrison's report says nothing about whether 5A apartment had been rented or not. What makes you think that Major Sequeira would have known?

The meeting with him was to establish what searches had already been carried out and the methodology used.

Carana, you suggested Prof Harrison wasn't informed about the 5A. I asked what made you say so. You didn't answer. I then reckoned he read reports and had a long talk with Major Sequeira. Before his arrival he had talks with the Portuguese who likely raised the issue (Portugal had no cadaver dog experience then).
The fact the flat had been rented after the disappearance implied mainly that cadaver scent, if there was, could have vanished. Eddie however alerted and he did it only there, not in all the other flats that had been rented and rented again. The dog didn't alert in 4G nor in the villa, which shows he had no fixation on any specific McCanns' scent.
Is it reasonable to imagine holidayers in the 5A had taken with them and put in the bedroom corner an urn or the shirt a loved one had died in ?
But as there is no proof and there'll never be the scent came from Madeleine's body, you shouldn't worry about it!

[Carana]

No, Carana, the team Harrison/Grime never mentioned a risk the alerts' source could be a pig in putrefaction state.
As you surely know, Eddie was first trained with decomposing pig for substance and decomposing blood for fluid. But, crucial point and part of the training, after the dog detected human bodies, i.e recognized their specificity, he was trained to reject decomposing pig using it in training as what they call a "distractor". If the dog pays attention to it, he gets a strong "leave it" by the handler.
So, yes, no forensic material was able to identify the body whose scent Eddie caught immediately, marking this by a change in his behaviour, but you can't deny the reality of the death scent nor suggest it was coming from a rotten pig or from this artificial mixture of cadaverine and putrescine.

Where in Grime's report does he say that?