Author Topic: For Albertini ...  (Read 117480 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #210 on: August 15, 2013, 06:51:40 PM »
The refusal or perceived refusal of most of the tapas-9 group to partake in any cooperation with the Portuguese Police including a reconstruction is very relevant don't you think?

I don't think the group trusted the Portuguese legal system. the Pj, it seems, had lied to Gerry re the evidence found. As Gerry KNEW Maddie had never been in that car,alive or dead , his initial(before he had researched the dogs) feeling would have been that the evidence had been planted. The MCanns could have spent a year in a Portuguese jail awaiting trial, as several uk citizens have done throughout Europe.
They simply didn't trust the pj, IMO

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #211 on: August 15, 2013, 06:56:58 PM »
If you care to read back a few posts Eleanor you will see that the reference to them not returning together was made to Praia da Luz and not Lisbon or anywhere else in Portugal. It is the Portimao police who have the case on their books yet marked unresolved.

I hadn't thought about this before but taken in context with the refusal to participate in anything official which in any way resembles a reconstruction then I am not in the least surprised.

As I posted on another board their reluctance to do any searching in Portugal is overshadowed by the heroic efforts of the Fitzpatrick and Needham familys who despite significant financial disadvantage have searched tirelessly in Spain and Kos respectively.  If anyone deserves to find their missing loved one it is them.

I am sure as I can be that the Needham family are innocent. However, there is no evidence of abduction and his grandmother has not proved her innocence ,because its impossible.

Offline Carana

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #212 on: August 15, 2013, 09:45:47 PM »
Does the fact that the McCanns choose to return to PdL one at a time have some relevance?

McCann prayers of Praia trip The Sun

Visit ... McCanns leave the court in Lisbon
From ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Published: 12 Dec 2009

KATE and Gerry McCann tonight attended a service at the church in Praia da Luz where they used to pray for their missing daughter.

Looking upset the couple walked hand in hand into the tiny Nossa Senhora da Luz church.

They were attending a vigil mass taken by Father Jose Pacheco.

The catholic priest comforted the couple in the days after Maddie went missing on May 3rd 2007.

The couple who are devout Catholics had earlier visited the church at dawn.

They later said on their website that their pain felt "rawer" in Praia da Luz but they had found comfort from being there.

Kate wrote: "Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time we feel closer to Madeleine."

She and husband Gerry decided to make the heartbreaking trip on the spur of the moment after a court case in Portugal's capital Lisbon was unexpectedly postponed.

The couple drove the 150 miles in a hire car and were last night believed to be staying with the Rev Haynes Hubbard and his wife Susan.

(...)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id290.html

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #213 on: August 15, 2013, 10:34:05 PM »
Are you making this up as you go along. I have provided a cite from a law dictionary for my post. What do you have to support your post... nothing..its absolute rubbish

David, please try and understand what you are cutting and pasting before you do so.

The presumption of innocent until proven guilty in a court is a facet of law which has been mentioned on here before.

It is encomapassed in:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, states: "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.".

Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights & Article 48 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union

2.Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

So if a suspect is brought to a court on charges and they are found not guilty they are acquitted in the eyes of the law they are "innocent" of those particular charges.

Their status of "innocent" must remain as they have not been proven guilty. Correct?

To aquit means  to formally certifiy that the accused is free from the charge of an offense, as far as the criminal law is concerned.

Then we move on to the idea of being brought to trial a second time on different charges. That is called double jeopardy.

Under double jeopardy rules a person cannot be tried for the same offense a second time. However in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 retrials may be ordered if "new and compelling evidence" comes to light after an acquittal for a serious crime.

Here's the detail on the CPS website:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/retrial_of_serious_offences/

Quote
Part 10 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (the 2003 Act) reforms the law relating to double jeopardy, by permitting retrials in respect of a number of very serious offences, where new and compelling evidence has come to light. Previously, the law did not permit a person who has been acquitted or convicted of an offence to be retried for that same offence.

There are two principles arising from the common law which prevent this. The first is known as autrefois acquit and autrefois convict. These principles provide a bar to a trial, in respect of the same offence, of a person who has previously been either acquitted or convicted of that offence. The second arose where the courts considered it an abuse of process for additional charges to be brought, following an acquittal or conviction, for different offences which arose from the same behaviour or facts (there were exceptions to this rule).

The law has been reformed to permit a retrial in cases of serious offences where there has been an acquittal in court, but compelling new evidence has subsequently come to light which indicates that an acquitted person was in fact guilty. Examples of new evidence might include DNA or fingerprint tests, or new witnesses to the offence coming forward.

The measures amend the law in relation to re-investigation of persons acquitted of serious offences in these circumstances, to enable the prosecuting authorities to apply to the Court of Appeal for an acquittal to be quashed, and for a retrial to take place where the Court of Appeal is satisfied that the new evidence is a compelling indication of the acquitted person's guilt.

They provide safeguards aimed at preventing the possible harassment of acquitted persons in cases where there is not genuinely new evidence, by requiring the personal consent of the DPP both to the re-opening of investigations and to the making of an application to the Court of Appeal. The DPP will take into account both the strength of the evidence and the public interest in determining whether a re-investigation or application to the Court is appropriate. For further information see the Legal Guidance on Consents to Prosecute.

The new procedures apply only in respect of serious offences. They are listed in Part 1 of Schedule 5 of the 2003 Act (see Annex A).

So when you think (rather than cut and paste) there is no legal mechanism for suspects to be found guilty of an offence they have been previously acquitted for, bar the exemption in the Criminal Justice Act for a retrial for serious offences.

So if someone is acquitted they are effectively "innocent" in the eyes of the law, and unless it is a serious case, they can not be found guilty on those self same charges.

They may be charged on different charges or if new evidence comes to light.

Which is precisely what i said in my previous post.

Now you might actually benefit from actually composing yourself and engaging in constructive and interesting discussion rather than simply chasing me round this forum like some little puppy dog with steam coming out of your ears.

It's not a good look, Dave, and it contributes nothing to the forum.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #214 on: August 15, 2013, 10:46:19 PM »
QUESTION FOR DAVEL SECOND TIME OF ASKING

In your own words (not Googled) and without saying again that the most senior lawyer in Portugal is "an idiot" can you explain what the AG report meant when it said:



Quote
The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.

Quote
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #215 on: August 15, 2013, 11:18:12 PM »
Another one for Albertini....

Innocent V. Not Guilty
 
Jury Decision Based Entirely On Evidence
(Media's Declarations of Innocence Inaccurate)
By: Hugh Duvall

Juries never find defendants innocent. They cannot. Not only is it not their job, it is not within their power. They can only find them "not guilty."


As regards law, you really do not have a clue.

Quoting an American defence lawyer's blog hardly qualifies you as a legal expert, and as usual you haven't read what you have posted.

If you read the article (under a completely different system which uses grand jury's for example) then you will see that it concerns attitudes of jurors and trying to reinforce not proven and not guilty.

As there is not an "innocent" verdict under UK law the accused is given a "not guilty" verdict which, irrespective of whether the accused has committed that crime or not means (other than the exception regarding double jeopardy i have mentioned) there is no way a court can find guilt on those self same charges and the accused remains innocent under the eyes of the law.

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #216 on: August 15, 2013, 11:41:05 PM »
I don't think the group trusted the Portuguese legal system. the Pj, it seems, had lied to Gerry re the evidence found. As Gerry KNEW Maddie had never been in that car,alive or dead , his initial(before he had researched the dogs) feeling would have been that the evidence had been planted. The MCanns could have spent a year in a Portuguese jail awaiting trial, as several uk citizens have done throughout Europe.
They simply didn't trust the pj, IMO

Quote
Attachment to Stuart Prior from Paulo Rebelo, answering the questions raised by witnesses over the proposed reconstruction

15 April 2008

Processos Volume XVI, pgs. 4190 to 4192


If it is their wish, the witnesses can be assisted by the Foreign Office and, in the proceedings, also by a legal representative, subject to the consent of the Public Prosecutor's Office. Within the scope of the cooperation that has been taking place, the Leicestershire Police has already been invited to be present in the proceedings;

But they were offered legal representation, coupled with the presence of the Foreign Office and Leicestershire Police.

Save for having the SAS there they could not have had more Uk protection.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #217 on: August 16, 2013, 04:50:40 AM »
You display a complete and utter ignorance of the law.
not guilty does not mean innocence. It means that the prosecution has not provided enough proof beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty.
You make long posts about double jeopardy.. totally irrelevant...
You agreed with the post that not guilty means 100% innocent...you are 100% wrong
Presumption of innocence does not mean 100% innocent otherwise we could state that the M cCanns are 100% innocent...
 OJ Simpson was found not guilty...is he 100% innocent.. then why did he have to pay millions in compensation to the victims family... the answer is a simple one line sentence.. you may need to ask a friend
You display a complete and utter ignorance of the law
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 06:27:30 AM by davel »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #218 on: August 16, 2013, 06:31:26 AM »
QUESTION FOR DAVEL SECOND TIME OF ASKING

In your own words (not Googled) and without saying again that the most senior lawyer in Portugal is "an idiot" can you explain what the AG report meant when it said:

 Can you give me a transcript of what the AG said, not an unnoficial translation, then I can answer the question. If he actually said this then I think he is an idiot because it is virtually impossible to prove innocence. I also think Gordon Brown was an idiot and millions would agree with me. Don't assume that because people hold high office that they never make a mistake in what they say.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #219 on: August 16, 2013, 06:38:32 AM »
From Blacks Law Dictionary


.
What is VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY?


a verdict declaring the case is not proven against the defendant. It does not mean he is innocent.
.

Law Dictionary: What is VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY? definition of VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY (Black's Law Dictionary) http://thelawdictionary.org/verdict-of-not-guilty/#ixzz2c2jzJIJT

Are you disagreeing with blacks Law Dictionary
Black's Law Dictionary is the definitive legal resource

 for lawyers, law students and laypeople alike.


Edited by the world’s foremost legal lexicographer, Bryan A. Garner, Black’s Law Dictionary is known for its clear and precise legal definitions, substantive accuracy, and stylistic clarity — making it the most cited legal dictionary in print.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 06:40:52 AM by davel »

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #220 on: August 16, 2013, 07:57:38 AM »
Are you disagreeing with blacks Law Dictionary
Black's Law Dictionary is the definitive legal resource

 for lawyers, law students and laypeople alike.


Edited by the world’s foremost legal lexicographer, Bryan A. Garner, Black’s Law Dictionary is known for its clear and precise legal definitions, substantive accuracy, and stylistic clarity — making it the most cited legal dictionary in print.

Ok, so to make it easy for you....

If someone receives a not guilty verdict, other than the exemption in the double jeopardy, how are they shown to be guilty under law?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #221 on: August 16, 2013, 08:28:51 AM »
Ok, so to make it easy for you....

If someone receives a not guilty verdict, other than the exemption in the double jeopardy, how are they shown to be guilty under law?

The not guilty verdict shows that the court has failed to prove the case on the basis of evidence produced beyond the grounds of reasonable doubt. It is not a pronouncement of innocence and the court accepts that many guilty people are found not guilty in court. I thought most people realised this. haven't you heard people say they only got off because of their expensive lawyers.
You are displaying an extreme ignorance of the law.

its there in Blacks Dictionary

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #222 on: August 16, 2013, 08:36:51 AM »
The not guilty verdict shows that the court has failed to prove the case on the basis of evidence produced beyond the grounds of reasonable doubt. It is not a pronouncement of innocence and the court accepts that many guilty people are found not guilty in court. I thought most people realised this. haven't you heard people say they only got off because of their expensive lawyers.
You are displaying an extreme ignorance of the law.

its there in Blacks Dictionary

Not all Dave, you are still copying and pasting stuff you don't understand.

So if someone is found not guilty, how does the court treat them? Are they innocent under law and free to go or do they have some kind of "not proven" or "not innocent" verdict?

Offline Albertini

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #223 on: August 16, 2013, 08:41:34 AM »
OJ Simpson was found not guilty...is he 100% innocent.. then why did he have to pay millions in compensation to the victims family... the answer is a simple one line sentence.. you may need to ask a friend
You display a complete and utter ignorance of the law

Oh dear, so much wrong here you really don't know what you're cutting and pasting or indeed what you are talking about.

OJ Simpson was found not guilty in a criminal case. In the eyes of the law he was found to be "innocent" of the charges put before a court.

He has never received one day's punishment for those criminal charges. Therefore he had been deemend innocent under law.

The compensation you speak of derived from a CIVIL case against him, not a criminal one.

We aren't talking about civil cases, we are talking about criminal cases.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: For Albertini ...
« Reply #224 on: August 16, 2013, 08:44:32 AM »
Not all Dave, you are still copying and pasting stuff you don't understand.

So if someone is found not guilty, how does the court treat them? Are they innocent under law and free to go or do they have some kind of "not proven" or "not innocent" verdict?

there was no cut and paste in my post so you are wrong again.
Presumption of innocence is a right. It does not mean you are innocent but you have the right to be treated as innocent.


A not guilty verdict does not mean you are innocent , it means you have the presumption of innocence and have the right to be treated as innocent.
You cannot seem to grasp basic legal facts.