The DNA results used to implicate the McCanns revisited.

[AnneGuedes]

One man cut himself badly shaving and walked about the place whilst trying to stop the blood flow.

Since when walking about a place helps stop blood ? Anyhow he didn't walk to the bedroom : there was no blood there.

[AnneGuedes]

...they were told the FSS would get conclusive results.

All any forensic laboratory can do is interpret the material it is presented with honestly and competently.

The FSS did that.

So, too, did the Portuguese forensic laboratory ...

Yes, Ferryman, but the National forensic laboratory said the chances to discover DNA were scare and the Portuguese feared controverse. The FSS' results, as you know, had been criticized in a case before and the FSS wouldn't risk (I find it right).

[sadie]

Since when walking about a place helps stop blood ? Anyhow he didn't walk to the bedroom : there was no blood there.

Twisting my words again Anne

I merely said that one man walked about the place whilst trying to stop the blood flow.

I did not say that the purpose of walking around was to stop the blood flow


Please do not change the emphasis of any of my posts.  It is a form of lying tbh

[Carana]

DNA evidence (where are results obtained through the LCN technique accepted outside of the UK ?) is no "facto imputado", Carana.
What the law says is an arguido has the right to know, before answering questions, what he's suspect of. The difficulty in the Madeleine case is that the crime wasn't determined neither when the McCanns were made arguidos nor 10 months later !

International use of LCN

    The FSS LCN test requires an ultra-clean laboratory and so is more expensive and less widely offered than the standard test.
    The site of this bespoke laboratory is remote from other DNA Units, operates stringent entry requirements, is fitted with positive air pressure and specialist lighting and chemical treatments to minimise DNA contamination.
    LCN methods have been used as evidence in a number of countries, ie; United States (New York), New Zealand, Holland, Italy, Germany, Croatia, Austria and Switzerland. Other countries including Belgium, Sweden, United States, Australia, Canada, Cayman Islands and Bermuda have requested this type of analysis from the FSS, who provided statements and scientists to attend Court.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/lcn_testing.html#_06

[AnneGuedes]

Thanks, Carana. The best would have been intelligence, since a portuguese court wouldn't have accepted the results.
It is a pity this laboratory had to close.

[Carana]

Thanks, Carana. The best would have been intelligence, since a portuguese court wouldn't have accepted the results.
It is a pity this laboratory had to close.

I presume that what I quoted above from the CPS is recent, although it's hard to tell as it isn't dated.

I doubt that the LCN results would have been accepted in a Portuguese court back in 2008 as well:

- I haven't found anything relevant on the use of LCN in Portugal so far (but I haven't actually looked that hard). There could always be a first time in terms of admitting a new type of evidence, but I would have thought that it would have had to have been generally accepted elsewhere and compelling in terms of the results - which was hardly the case in this instance by any stretch of the imagination.

- Back in 2007, early 2008, there was quite some controversy about it in the Omagh case, which led to it being suspended for a few months pending the completion of a review by the CPS. In the end, this seems to have been more of a precautionary measure, and the suspension was lifted following the review, some time around February 2008. Up until then, although it had apparently been used in the UK quite a lot, it was still considered too new to be condsidered reliable in many other countries: "Michael Buchanan said LCN DNA was only accepted as evidence in two other countries, New Zealand and the Netherlands, because of concerns over its accuracy."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7156051.stm

The judge's ruling in that case:
http://www.bailii.org/nie/cases/NICC/2007/49.html

But then, for virtually the same reasons, I doubt that the dog evidence would have been either.

From Harrison's rog: GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.

Personally, I don't find bringing in the dogs a waste of time in case they had been able to locate her. However, there would have been a much greater chance of that if they had been brought in back in mid-May. However, in this instance, the "physical evidence" would have been the LCN soup of alleles to which 3-5 people had
contributed.

Team Amaral's smoking gun in support of a wildly illogical theory was nothing more than a wisp of vapour.

[Carana]

I don't know whether this is really a myth, Carana. The ice hypothesis was absurd, due to refusal of pragmatism. Moreover I'm not sure a Portuguese court would have accepted the LCN technique, had it be less inconclusive, 1) because this technique is far to be accepted outside of the UK and 2) because within a family of 5 the risk of mistake is too high.

Quite aside from Amaral's "we policemen, experts" theory of a melting corpse, there was also this gem from the same interview on Júlia's show:


DL: In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone's paternity, therefore… That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don't they have any more samples to carry out…


I've always found that "fact" rather intriguing: how could one be 3/4 of a biological parent? If that were true, there would be kids in Portugal wondering who their other 1/4 biological parents might be.

 >@@(*&)

And, on the second part of that comment, I have been unable to find anything to suggest that the INML was equipped for LCN testing. It doesn't appear to have been validated in Portugal, so I don't see why they would have invested in it.

[Carana]

You know why they sent the samples to FSS Birmingham ? This decision speaks volumes and deserves to be looked at.
The Portuguese didn't invent the FSS, they were told the FSS would get conclusive results. They knew the Lisbon forensic institute probably wouldn't because the samples were very precarious. Sending the samples to Birmingham was another mistake of the PJ. A waste of time and money.

On the underlined part, I think that's speculation on your part, Anne. ;)

From Amaral's book:


HARVESTING OF THE SAMPLES DERIVED FROM THE SPECIALIST DOGS’ INSPECTIONS

So that the items of evidence might constitute admissible proof, the harvesting and packing must conform to the rules avoiding all risk of deterioration and contamination. It is experts from our police forensic laboratory who carry out the harvesting. The minuscule traces cannot be gathered in situ, so the tiling is gently lifted out before being transferred to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Birmingham. Photos bear witness to every stage of the operation. For added security, it is the expert responsible for the collection who takes them to FSS on the morning of August 7th. The choice of this laboratory is not insignificant. Apart from their use of cutting-edge technologies - LCN (Low Copy Number) a DNA identification test, used particularly when only microscopic samples are available -, the results, whatever they might be will not be able to be contested by the British since it’s one of their most reliable laboratories. All other items of evidence gathered - the keys to the McCanns’ car, hair and traces of blood found in the boot - are also sent to England.

[Matthew Wyse]

I have been meaning to ask for some time why didn't the Portuguese do the DNA analysis instead of sending the samples to the FSS in Birmingham?  Portugal must surely have been doing similar tests in other criminal cases so why do anything differently in this case?     8-)(--)

[Carana]

I have been meaning to ask for some time why didn't the Portuguese do the DNA analysis instead of sending the samples to the FSS in Birmingham?  Portugal must surely have been doing similar tests in other criminal cases so why do anything differently in this case?     8-)(--)

Does my post just above help?

[Matthew Wyse]

Does my post just above help?

Yes thanks.  Could it be that the Portuguese were routinely sending samples to the FSS and this was nothing unique?

[Carana]

Yes thanks.  Could it be that the Portuguese were routinely sending samples to the FSS and this was nothing unique?

From what I can gather, the early samples (from 5A and other apartments, buccal swabs, etc.) were sent to the PT lab (INML). Everything UK-related (samples recovered from where Keela alerted, Madeleine's DNA, etc.) was sent to the FSS.

ETA: for the FSS, their "client" was the LP. The Home Office helped cover some of the LP's costs related to the case. It's possible, though not certain, that the HO picked up the FSS tab as part of that.

[AnneGuedes]

On the underlined part, I think that's speculation on your part, Anne. ;)

From Amaral's book:


HARVESTING OF THE SAMPLES DERIVED FROM THE SPECIALIST DOGS’ INSPECTIONS

So that the items of evidence might constitute admissible proof, the harvesting and packing must conform to the rules avoiding all risk of deterioration and contamination. It is experts from our police forensic laboratory who carry out the harvesting. The minuscule traces cannot be gathered in situ, so the tiling is gently lifted out before being transferred to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Birmingham. Photos bear witness to every stage of the operation. For added security, it is the expert responsible for the collection who takes them to FSS on the morning of August 7th. The choice of this laboratory is not insignificant. Apart from their use of cutting-edge technologies - LCN (Low Copy Number) a DNA identification test, used particularly when only microscopic samples are available -, the results, whatever they might be will not be able to be contested by the British since it’s one of their most reliable laboratories. All other items of evidence gathered - the keys to the McCanns’ car, hair and traces of blood found in the boot - are also sent to England.

Of course I'm speculating, those things are never expressed. The PJ learnt through their LC collaborators about LCN, a technique the Portuguese forensic laboratories didn't master (at least yet), they had no choice ! And besides they knew that the results, being british, wouldn't be contested by the UK as about everything they did was.
Note that I'm not suggesting at all that the FSS needed money badly etc.

[AnneGuedes]

Quite aside from Amaral's "we policemen, experts" theory of a melting corpse, there was also this gem from the same interview on Júlia's show:


DL: In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone's paternity, therefore… That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don't they have any more samples to carry out…


I've always found that "fact" rather intriguing: how could one be 3/4 of a biological parent? If that were true, there would be kids in Portugal wondering who their other 1/4 biological parents might be.

 >@@(*&)

And, on the second part of that comment, I have been unable to find anything to suggest that the INML was equipped for LCN testing. It doesn't appear to have been validated in Portugal, so I don't see why they would have invested in it.

Who is this DL ?
I can try to find out whether the INML is doing LCN testing. I don't even know it they do it in France. Interesting technique, but not yet reliable enough.
In France (and in the US it seems) 13 loci (of repeated sequences) are examined to establish affiliation.

[Carana]

Of course I'm speculating, those things are never expressed. The PJ learnt through their LC collaborators about LCN, a technique the Portuguese forensic laboratories didn't master (at least yet), they had no choice ! And besides they knew that the results, being british, wouldn't be contested by the UK as about everything they did was.
Note that I'm not suggesting at all that the FSS needed money badly etc.

At the time the samples were sent for analysis, I don't see how they could have foreseen that they would need to resort to LCN. The technicians were just trying to do the job they were asked to do.

It's not clear who paid the bill. I find it feasible that PT paid the INML bill and the UK paid the FSS (as part of their bilateral cooperation).