The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.

[Jean-Pierre]

Anne is spot on when she states that the 'arguido' status can mean many different things at various points in an investigation.  The term can be used to identify an official suspect, a defendant who has been charged with an offence and a convicted person as in the case of Mr Amaral.

In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.

Not really Angelo - it needs qualification. 

Arugido is a very specific term, having its roots in latin "arguire" - to argue.  It gives certain rights - legal representation and the right not to answer questions being two of them.  In an inquisitorial system, these are important.  (because the process is that the prosecution and the defendant work together to discover the truth).   

A person has to be constituted an arguido before any further steps can be taken.  A person cannot be charged or brought to trial.  They will remain an arguido, but will be the defendant (assuming the PP gives leave to bring the case to trial). 

So arguido in itself simply confers rights - it cannot be transalted in itself to mean defendant, offender or any other legal term.   

[Jean-Pierre]

Bilingualism on it's own may not categorically prove a quick intellect but it is certainly a good marker.

Not at all.  It results from a number of factors.  Many people around the world have English as a second language, due  to the influence of (a) the british empire and british colonisation and exploration of different parts of the world (b) US films and TV (c) literature

In the same way that French is widely spoken in morocco, in the far east etc, and in diplomatic and political circles.

And it is on a need basis - people in tourist areas (such as the coast of Portugal, (where tourism is of such importance to the economy) will tend to be able to speak english and possibly german.

The last factor is utility - in the UK, because so many people round the world do speak English, there is little incentive to develop skills in other tongues.  If you take Holland as an example, the dutch often speak several languages because they are a trading nation and very few foreigners speak any dutch.  So they have to learn other languages.

It has very little to do with intelligence or other abilities.  Although it is very useful, of course.

This brings up the uncomfortable question, of course. If the translations provided by the Portuguese members were in any way wrong or biased - then why?  What was the point?   

[Carana]

Anne is spot on when she states that the 'arguido' status can mean many different things at various points in an investigation.  The term can be used to identify an official suspect, a defendant who has been charged with an offence and a convicted person as in the case of Mr Amaral.

In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.

I have never said anything different, in fact I was the one who brought up the subject of the word being translated to convey different meanings of the word according to the context of the stage in the judicial process in the first place. I have no problem with that, providing the word chosen conveys the meaning as closely as possible in the context.

What I was trying to point out is that the translation of "constituição de arguido" as "held as defendant" (done or arranged) by the PJ on their arguido form was incorrect.

I haven't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context.

Concerning Amaral, I had a glance at various court rulings. The term "arguido" seems to be used in court until the end of the appeals process. In his case, his conviction was upheld.

My broader point is simply to illustrate how language and cultural difficulties can lead to misunderstandings.

[faithlilly]

 

Not at all.  It results from a number of factors.  Many people around the world have English as a second language, due  to the influence of (a) the british empire and british colonisation and exploration of different parts of the world (b) US films and TV (c) literature

In the same way that French is widely spoken in morocco, in the far east etc, and in diplomatic and political circles.

And it is on a need basis - people in tourist areas (such as the coast of Portugal, (where tourism is of such importance to the economy) will tend to be able to speak english and possibly german.

The last factor is utility - in the UK, because so many people round the world do speak English, there is little incentive to develop skills in other tongues.  If you take Holland as an example, the dutch often speak several languages because they are a trading nation and very few foreigners speak any dutch.  So they have to learn other languages.

It has very little to do with intelligence or other abilities.  Although it is very useful, of course.

This brings up the uncomfortable question, of course. If the translations provided by the Portuguese members were in any way wrong or biased - then why?  What was the point?   

And that is an incredibly big if..

[Carana]

For anyone interested, entries for "arguido" in the IATE database.

 LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
acusação
               
factos imputados ao arguido
            
EN
   
specification
               
charge
            
count of indictment
            


Criminal law [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
arguido
               
EN
   
defendant
               
accused
            
accused person
            


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
absolver o arguido
               
EN
   
to acquit
               
to exonerate the accused from prosecution
            


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
coarguido
               
EN
   
joint defendant
               
co-defendant
            


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
absolver plenamente o arguido
               
absolvição plena
            
EN
   
to discharge the accused on every count
               


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
absolvição do arguido
               
EN
   
to discharge a defendant
               


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
ordenar a comparência do arguido noutra audiência
               
EN
   
to remand the prisoner
               


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
documento arguido de falsidade
               
documento arguido de nulidade
            
EN
   
deed asserted to be forged,void
               


LAW [COM]    Full entry
PT
   
apresentação do arguido após declaração de contumácia
               
EN
   
to surrender to law after being sentenced in absence
               
http://iate.europa.eu/iatediff/SearchByQuery.do?method=search&query=arguido&sourceLanguage=pt&&targetLanguages=en&domain=0&matching=&typeOfSearch=s&start=0&next=1

[Carana]

In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.

But not since July 2008.

Agreed.

[AnneGuedes]

And that is an incredibly big if..

Yes, Faithlilly, so incredibly big that it were no luxury for the sceptic pros to spend a dime at least on key documents !
Unless their objective is only to attack the work of the "Portuguese" (Inês is neither Portuguese nor lusophone btw), no matter Madeleine's fate.

[Angelo222]

Not really Angelo - it needs qualification. 

Arugido is a very specific term, having its roots in latin "arguire" - to argue.  It gives certain rights - legal representation and the right not to answer questions being two of them.  In an inquisitorial system, these are important.  (because the process is that the prosecution and the defendant work together to discover the truth).   

A person has to be constituted an arguido before any further steps can be taken.  A person cannot be charged or brought to trial.  They will remain an arguido, but will be the defendant (assuming the PP gives leave to bring the case to trial). 

So arguido in itself simply confers rights - it cannot be transalted in itself to mean defendant, offender or any other legal term.   

It means the McCanns were official suspects in the disappearance of their daughter whether you like to admit it or not.  The arguido status may have been lifted by the Portuguese authorities but it can be reinstated at any time since the case has not yet been determined.

[Carana]

Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations.

On the whole, I've found that the volunteer file translators have done their best. Of course, there have been mistakes and missing sentences and - as far as I'm aware - corrections have been made.

[Carana]

It means the McCanns were official suspects in the disappearance of their daughter whether you like to admit it or not.

The operative word being "were".

At no point were they "defendants" or "offenders".

[AnneGuedes]

I haven't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context.

Do you mean you haven't found the name of the translator or haven't found the translation itself ?

[Chinagirl]

Angelo:  Just to remind you:

Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.

[AnneGuedes]

Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations.

Instead of keeping that for yourself like a skeleton in the cupboard, why didn't you denounce what would appear a work of public salubrity and bring you the gratitude of all ?

[sadie]

Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations.

On the whole, I've found that the volunteer file translators have done their best. Of course, there have been mistakes and missing sentences and - as far as I'm aware - corrections have been made.

Alterations have certainly been made.  And I am not saying they are corrections either, but alterations.

I have hard copies of one such.

[Angelo222]

Angelo:  Just to remind you:

Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.

Not according to the Portuguese Police and it is their case on their patch.  SY are merely spectators when it comes down to it and that is all they will ever be.