SY claim the man Tanner saw had collected his child from the night creche ?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Only if he had stopped off at some late night barber for a trim - one is described as having long hair, the other short hair.

Well, Jane saw him mainly from the back, and the Smiths from the front, so there could have been a discrepancy as regards the account of the hair on the back of the head.

Most of the other details - and there are quite a few - are uncannily similar, so much so that many people believed these two sightings to have been of the same person, despite the highly problematic time frame.

[AnneGuedes]

many people believed these two sightings to have been of the same person, despite the highly problematic time frame.

Most people ignore the existence of the second sighting, SH, see the rare articles on that topic, two or three in Portugal and in Ireland at the time. And the PJ never believed it could be the same person.

[DCI]

Maybe the child fell asleep at the creche and the shoes were taken off.

If that was the case, wouldn't the father be carrying them.

Martin Smith says


 He states that the child was female, about four years of age as she was similar to his granddaughter of the same age. She was a child of normal build, about a metre in height though not being absolutely certain of that as she was being carried. The child has blonde medium-hued hair, without being very light. Her skin was very white, typical of a Brit. He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed.
— She was wearing light-coloured pyjamas. He cannot state with certainty the colour. She was not covered by any wrap or blanket. He cannot confirm whether she was barefoot but in his group, they spoke about the child having no cover on her feet.

Bit of a contradiction here.

"He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed".
How would he see her eyelids were closed, if she was carried in the way he says?

[Cariad]

Well, Jane saw him mainly from the back, and the Smiths from the front, so there could have been a discrepancy as regards the account of the hair on the back of the head.

Most of the other details - and there are quite a few - are uncannily similar, so much so that many people believed these two sightings to have been of the same person, despite the highly problematic time frame.

Surly Innocentman would've mentioned to Sy that he was also Smithman though? unless you're saying that Innocentman is Smithman but not Budleman as Sy believe?

[jassi]

Well, Jane saw him mainly from the back, and the Smiths from the front, so there could have been a discrepancy as regards the account of the hair on the back of the head.

Most of the other details - and there are quite a few - are uncannily similar, so much so that many people believed these two sightings to have been of the same person, despite the highly problematic time frame.

Neither of the two recent - I hesitate to say new - e-fits show men with short hair, which is a definite conflict with Tannerman. She made very definite efforts to emphasise that his hair was long at the back.

[AnneGuedes]

She made very definite efforts to emphasise that his hair was long at the back.

Yes, this and the naked feet were Ms Tanner's first observations.
Innocentman, in CW video, has short in the neck, curly and dark hair.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Surly Innocentman would've mentioned to Sy that he was also Smithman though? unless you're saying that Innocentman is Smithman but not Budleman as Sy believe?

Or that the account of his movements  Innocentman gave to SY is not correct...

[icabodcrane]

Or that the account of his movements  Innocentman gave to SY is not correct...

Are you suggesting that  innocent man,  who has been identified and spoken to by Scotland Yard,    is 'in the frame'  as a possible abductor  ? 

[Sherlock Holmes]

If that was the case, wouldn't the father be carrying them.

Martin Smith says


 He states that the child was female, about four years of age as she was similar to his granddaughter of the same age. She was a child of normal build, about a metre in height though not being absolutely certain of that as she was being carried. The child has blonde medium-hued hair, without being very light. Her skin was very white, typical of a Brit. He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed.
— She was wearing light-coloured pyjamas. He cannot state with certainty the colour. She was not covered by any wrap or blanket. He cannot confirm whether she was barefoot but in his group, they spoke about the child having no cover on her feet.

Bit of a contradiction here.

"He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed".
How would he see her eyelids were closed, if she was carried in the way he says?

Perhaps he is inferring from the way her body is falling against the man's that she is asleep.

Thinking again about the shoes, it would be unusual to be wearing shoes with pyjamas, so quite unlikely that they were taken off at the creche. Unless the child went to the creche fully clothed, got tired, and was changed into pyjamas before being put in a bed there.

[pathfinder73]

("He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed".
How would he see her eyelids were closed, if she was carried in the way he says?)

I thought he said that her head was resting on Smithman's left shoulder so why couldn't he see her eyes as they passed each other in a narrow street? He may have glanced straight back as they passed and saw her eyes closed.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Are you suggesting that  innocent man,  who has been identified and spoken to by Scotland Yard,    is 'in the frame'  as a possible abductor  ?

No, in fact I think that, as far as a working hypothesis goes, we have to accept that SY have good reason for having ruled bundleman out as an abductor - frustrating as it is for us that we haven't been given the reason.

I am trying to make sense of the fact that the respective descriptions of Smithman and former bundleman are uncannily similar.

If bundleman is innocent, and Smithman is also innocent, that means that there were two innocent men walking around PdL whose descriptions were very similar and whose children were very similar. In addition to all those similarities, there is a similarity in the relationship between these men and police: one of them appears to have been exceptionally tardy in coming forward to police, and another has not come forward at all. SO many similarities. Perhaps Smithman and innocentman  are in fact the same person, and for some reason innocentman wants to leave the Rua Escola part of his wanderings that night out of his account. Just because his story, as he gave it to SY, is considered substantial enough for him to be ruled out as Madeleine's abductor, doesn't mean that every part of it is true.

[jassi]

("He did not notice her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed".
How would he see her eyelids were closed, if she was carried in the way he says?)

I thought he said that her head was resting on Smithman's left shoulder so why couldn't he see her eyes as they passed each other in a narrow street? He may have glanced straight back as they passed and saw her eyes closed.

I've always assumed that she had the side of her head resting against his shoulder, in which case he could have seen that one eye was closed.
Did Mr Smith pass to the right or the left of the man ? If she was lying with her left cheek against the shoulder and he passed by the left hand side  of the man, then he could have had a good view of her face

[AnneGuedes]

Supposing a second that Innocentman could be Smithman is having time and energy in excess.
It should be enough to reckon that Innocentman has a dark curly hair, Smithman hasn't.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Supposing a second that Innocentman could be Smithman is having time and energy in excess.
It should be enough to reckon that Innocentman has a dark curly hair, Smithman hasn't.

As I said before, the hair was seen from different angles by Jane and the Smiths, so it's not surprising that the descriptions would be different.

The overall picture of man with child was very similar in both accounts.

[icabodcrane]

As I said before, the hair was seen from different angles by Jane and the Smiths, so it's not surprising that the descriptions would be different.

The overall picture of man with child was very similar in both accounts.

But  Scotland  Yard have virtually eliminated bundleman,  whilst simultaneously stressing  the importance of identifying Smithman

Do you believe Redwood and his investigation are so inept they failed to establish that bundleman and Smithman  were one and the same   ?