Author Topic: Praia Da Luz Church  (Read 96945 times)

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Martina

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #180 on: June 09, 2014, 02:26:41 AM »
Recent events re Operation Yewtree(?)  would appear to contradict that.  As soon as the allegations were made public about certain people  - hundreds of victims came forward.

The abuse being investigated during the Yewtree Operation covers the timespan between 1959 and the eighties, so the latest molestations in this case happened at least twenty five years ago. That means all these victims are adults now. That actually confirms what I wrote earlier.

Offline Benice

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #181 on: June 09, 2014, 02:29:55 AM »
The abuse being investigated during the Yewtree Operation covers the timespan between 1959 and the eighties, so the latest molestations in this case happened at least twenty five years ago. That means all these victims are adults now. That actually confirms what I wrote earlier.

The point I was making is that it is the PUBLICITY of the allegations which results in people coming forward. 
The allegations against DP have been in the public domain for years - but no-one has come forward.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Martina

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #182 on: June 09, 2014, 02:52:36 AM »
The point I was making is that it is the PUBLICITY of the allegations which results in people coming forward. 
The allegations against DP have been in the public domain for years - but no-one has come forward.

BEcause any potential victims in this case would be still children, not strong enough to deal with the trauma and too scared to tell anyone. That is the point I am trying to make.

Martina

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #183 on: June 09, 2014, 02:55:00 AM »

DISCLAIMER (because I don't want  my behind busted because libel and whatnot) I am not claiming that there are any victims of Dr. Payne. I am just pointing out why they would not come out in such a fresh case. That's all.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 02:58:47 AM by Martina »

Offline Benice

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #184 on: June 09, 2014, 08:31:51 AM »
BEcause any potential victims in this case would be still children, not strong enough to deal with the trauma and too scared to tell anyone. That is the point I am trying to make.

What about their parents?  Surely any parent who realised (via the publicity) that their child had been in the company of an alleged  paedaphile at some time or another would question them?   

Claiming that no child would 'tell' is being unrealistic IMO.  If that was the case we wouldn't have Childline.
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2014, 10:34:44 PM »
Pathfinder:

 She [Mrs Gaspar] was making sure he was nowhere near her children. Bathing other kids  8-)(--) WTF is that all about.

I'm afraid you've been misled by the propaganda in Amaral's book.

According to her own account (that we read in the files) Mrs G did not prevent the man she accused from bathing their daughter; but merely instructed her husband to be on alert when it was his turn to bath the children.

The other point Amaral screwed up in his book is that he says the Gaspars made a joint statement.

Quite aside from betraying Amaral's ignorance (as formerly a senior PJ officer) of procedures common to the PJ and police forces around the world that witnesses are interviewed individually, the point that they gave separate interviews is vital.  Mr G's statement reads, almost, as a favourable character reference for DP.

Offline pegasus

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #186 on: June 11, 2014, 10:42:06 PM »
The first phonecall I see to any church was an attempted call from OC landline to a church not in PDL but in Lagos, it was a very short call consistent IMO not with talking to a person but with getting through to an an answering machine, as one might expect at that hour (something like 4am that night IIRC).

Offline pegasus

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #187 on: June 11, 2014, 10:48:54 PM »
Quite aside from betraying Amaral's ignorance (as formerly a senior PJ officer) of procedures common to the PJ and police forces around the world that witnesses are interviewed individually, the point that they gave separate interviews is vital. 
I don't know if you are aware of this, but one of the most important interviews of a witness by PJ in Portimao on 4th May 2007, and indeed of the whole investigation, was conducted by the PJ, contrary to standard practice, with another witness also present in the room, sitting behind, but within physical contact distance of, the witness being interviewed. Do you agree that this was an error by the PJ? Do you think it might in any way have affected what the witness being interviewed said?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 10:52:40 PM by pegasus »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #188 on: June 11, 2014, 10:54:31 PM »
I don't know if you are aware of this, but one of the most important interviews of a witness by PJ in Portimao on 4th May 2007, and indeed of the whole investigation, was conducted by the PJ with another witness present in the room, sitting behind, but in physical contact with, the witness being interviewed. Do you agree that this was an error by the PJ? Do you think it might in any way have affected what the witness being interviewed said?

The particular interview you refer to was of Kate, when Joao Carlos allowed Gerry to be with Kate during that interview.

Then as now, the McCanns were regarded as victims rather than suspects and Carlos showed common decency and compassion in allowing Gerry to be present, too.

Carlos is a fundamentally decent cove. 

I like him.

I think his final report on behalf of the PJ was excellent.

Offline pegasus

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #189 on: June 11, 2014, 11:07:52 PM »
The particular interview you refer to was of Kate, when Joao Carlos allowed Gerry to be with Kate during that interview.

Then as now, the McCanns were regarded as victims rather than suspects and Carlos showed common decency and compassion in allowing Gerry to be present, too.

Carlos is a fundamentally decent cove. 

I like him.

I think his final report on behalf of the PJ was excellent.
Yes that's the interview.
Why did the PJ have the witness who was not being interviewed sit behind, rather than next to, the witness who was being interviewed?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #190 on: June 11, 2014, 11:10:08 PM »
Yes that's the interview.
Why did the PJ have the witness who was not being interviewed sit behind, rather than next to, the witness who was being interviewed?

What?

Offline pegasus

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #191 on: June 11, 2014, 11:24:05 PM »
What?
João Carlos agreed to the presence only with the proviso that the other person sat behind the witness.
Source: The book "Madeleine".
Seems like Carlos, although compassionately breaking protocol by allowing another person to be present, insisted on this seating proviso in order to retain some resemblance to a normal interview? 

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #192 on: June 15, 2014, 01:02:38 PM »
What is it that the church has?

TVMais magazine

Announced visits and another in secret, keys provided against the wishes of the Bishop, the priest's wife , finished constructions and searches never made​​. What is it that the church of Praia da Luz has?

By Hernâni Carvalho

With thanks to Joana Morais for translation and Maria for images

• On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. It was with him whom they spoke with. Some days later, Gerry and Kate received the church keys, and since then they were able to enter and leave at any time. A situation that was criticized by the Bishop of the Algarve at the time. When questioned on this discretionary act, the priest José Pacheco said: "Do I decide that?!"

McCanns visited the church in secret

"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine", we can read in a press statement sent to Lusa news agency in 12th December 2009, by the McCann's Portuguese PR, in connection to the couple's visit to the church. During the day, the visits were announced and followed by the media. The exception was made in the early hours of January 14, 2010. At 5am they were seen and photographed leaving the church from a side door. In the afternoon they gave a press conference.

Wife of Priest worried

The forensic psychologist Paulo Sargento asked the bishop of the Algarve Dom Manuel Quintas, if any catholic can go to the church at any time.

Hernâni Carvalho - How did you get to talk with the bishop?

Paulo Sargento - I sent a registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt early on, in January 2010. Since I got no reply, about a month later, I sent an e-mail with the questions that I had. Four days later, it was the Bishop himself who replied, also by e-mail, apologizing for the delay in the answer. A hearing was scheduled for two or three days later.

Hernâni Carvalho - And you felt clarified?

Paulo Sargento - The hearing took place in February, at the episcopal see of Faro. The Bishop received me kindly. We talked about an hour. I had already been informed about a McCann visit to the church in the early hours and wondered if the Bishop was aware of that and I also wished to understand if any other catholic could do the same. Dom Manuel Quintas confirmed the McCanns had indeed been in the church on that day at 5am, that the person who had given them the key that night was Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican priest, who had a key to the church at all times since her husband celebrated the Anglican mass there. Susan assured the Bishop the McCanns wanted to pray without being harassed by the media. However, the Bishop told me: "I don't understand, that day at 17h00 there was a mass where they went, surrounded by the media". Dom Manuel Quintas also added that when Susan Hubbard found out about my hearing request, she got scared and inclusively, sought him, very worried. The Bishop told me that he answered her queries saying that she should not be so worried if nothing unusual or wrong had happened.

Hernâni Carvalho - Did the Bishop avoid discussing any issues?

Paulo Sargento - No. I'm not going to give you details, but the Bishop was very open and did not flinch at anything I asked to him. He was willing, even, to resume contact for further questions or more information I needed. Interestingly, in that summer (2010), Kate spent a week vacation in Canada, in the house of a family member of Susan Hubbard, the wife of the priest.

Construction Works

Back in 2007, the public area of the Village of Luz had been for months undergoing sanitation improvements and road works. Behind the church there were ongoing construction works. Being a place of worship, various legal issues hampered a search there. At the time, PJ sources admitted to the possibility that the girl's body could have passed through that location, or even, to have been buried in the deactivated cemetery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 99:

The Big Bluff

The British police came to Portugal to investigate the Maddie case. They dug and went into the sewers looking for a dead girl or clues that could lead to her whereabouts. The PJ had said the very same and had done those searches seven years ago.

• "A movie for the English to see," said an elderly lady, mockingly, to CMTV recently. One and a half year ago the English police announced that they would find the girl in a few days. So far nothing. Scotland Yard's work in Portugal is discussed by all in a very critical way. "They haven't done anything that our PJ hasn't done years ago," stated a Portuguese in the same area. The searches are causing discontent among tourists and locals as they consider them detrimental to tourism, now that the peak season begins.

Show Off

The British police wanted the searches to be accompanied by the media but the PJ refused. Since the 2nd of June, Praia da Luz in Lagos has a large team of policemen, geologists, archaeologists, cutting edge technology and also sniffer dogs. They all come from England "under the supervision of PJ and the Public Prosecutor Office". In addition there are PJ inspectors, GNR military officers on foot and horseback and Portuguese forest sappers. A setting worthy of a Hollywood blockbuster movie.

Stones, socks and bottles

The searches and excavations of the English police in Luz highlights the acknowledgement that they are looking for a body. The PJ had reached that same conclusion seven years ago. The English police began by excavating a field near Rua 25 de Abril, 600 metres away from the apartment from where the girl disappeared. An area equal to three football fields, a slope hill, which belongs to the Belmiro de Azevedo Group [SONAE] and is frequented by locals and tourists for leisurely walks. They collected animal bones, two cannabis plants, stones, soil samples, a sock and bottles and kept everything in boxes.

Nothing

There are no findings to sustain the theory of the British authorities. They argue that Maddie's body is in that place or that there are clues that may lead to her whereabouts. They also claim that they have a group of eight suspects(?). Explaining that they have extended the searches because they have concluded (only now?) that the terrain is more difficult to analyse than predicted. These places had already been thoroughly searched by the Portuguese police immediately after the disappearance of the girl. In fact, until September 11, 2007, the PJ had investigated over 2500 false leads.

Millions of Euros

The 37 officers of the London Metropolitan Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine have cost the British Crown about 6 million pounds (7.4 million euros). Besides the first investigation, Portugal has had a team of six inspectors of the PJ in Faro, for months, just to carry out the steps requested by the British and another team of inspectors from the Northern Directorate of PJ, doing a review of the first investigation for the last two years. No one has, so far, established the total cost to our country. The McCanns moved in early July 2007 to the Villa Vista Mar. At the average values of the property market at the time, the total rent was calculated to have surpassed 6000 euros. The Renault Scénic where biological traces were found, allegedly belonging to Maddie, was rented for 113 days, at the list price it cost 7990 euros.

Maddie

3 May 2007
In Praia da Luz in the Algarve, the parents of Madeleine, who would be four years old just a few days later, cried "abduction" when they noticed Maddie had disappeared from the apartment where they had left her alone with her ​​younger twin siblings. "Homicide", said the PJ a few days later. After a lot of press, suspects, searches, investigations to everyone's taste and seven years later, there is nothing.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 01:05:34 PM by Wonderfulspam »
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline Brietta

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #193 on: June 15, 2014, 08:04:32 PM »
What is it that the church has?

TVMais magazine

Announced visits and another in secret, keys provided against the wishes of the Bishop, the priest's wife , finished constructions and searches never made​​. What is it that the church of Praia da Luz has?

By Hernâni Carvalho

With thanks to Joana Morais for translation and Maria for images

• On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. It was with him whom they spoke with. Some days later, Gerry and Kate received the church keys, and since then they were able to enter and leave at any time. A situation that was criticized by the Bishop of the Algarve at the time. When questioned on this discretionary act, the priest José Pacheco said: "Do I decide that?!"

McCanns visited the church in secret

"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine", we can read in a press statement sent to Lusa news agency in 12th December 2009, by the McCann's Portuguese PR, in connection to the couple's visit to the church. During the day, the visits were announced and followed by the media. The exception was made in the early hours of January 14, 2010. At 5am they were seen and photographed leaving the church from a side door. In the afternoon they gave a press conference.

Wife of Priest worried

The forensic psychologist Paulo Sargento asked the bishop of the Algarve Dom Manuel Quintas, if any catholic can go to the church at any time.

Hernâni Carvalho - How did you get to talk with the bishop?

Paulo Sargento - I sent a registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt early on, in January 2010. Since I got no reply, about a month later, I sent an e-mail with the questions that I had. Four days later, it was the Bishop himself who replied, also by e-mail, apologizing for the delay in the answer. A hearing was scheduled for two or three days later.

Hernâni Carvalho - And you felt clarified?

Paulo Sargento - The hearing took place in February, at the episcopal see of Faro. The Bishop received me kindly. We talked about an hour. I had already been informed about a McCann visit to the church in the early hours and wondered if the Bishop was aware of that and I also wished to understand if any other catholic could do the same. Dom Manuel Quintas confirmed the McCanns had indeed been in the church on that day at 5am, that the person who had given them the key that night was Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican priest, who had a key to the church at all times since her husband celebrated the Anglican mass there. Susan assured the Bishop the McCanns wanted to pray without being harassed by the media. However, the Bishop told me: "I don't understand, that day at 17h00 there was a mass where they went, surrounded by the media". Dom Manuel Quintas also added that when Susan Hubbard found out about my hearing request, she got scared and inclusively, sought him, very worried. The Bishop told me that he answered her queries saying that she should not be so worried if nothing unusual or wrong had happened.

Hernâni Carvalho - Did the Bishop avoid discussing any issues?

Paulo Sargento - No. I'm not going to give you details, but the Bishop was very open and did not flinch at anything I asked to him. He was willing, even, to resume contact for further questions or more information I needed. Interestingly, in that summer (2010), Kate spent a week vacation in Canada, in the house of a family member of Susan Hubbard, the wife of the priest.

Construction Works

Back in 2007, the public area of the Village of Luz had been for months undergoing sanitation improvements and road works. Behind the church there were ongoing construction works. Being a place of worship, various legal issues hampered a search there. At the time, PJ sources admitted to the possibility that the girl's body could have passed through that location, or even, to have been buried in the deactivated cemetery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 99:

The Big Bluff

The British police came to Portugal to investigate the Maddie case. They dug and went into the sewers looking for a dead girl or clues that could lead to her whereabouts. The PJ had said the very same and had done those searches seven years ago.

• "A movie for the English to see," said an elderly lady, mockingly, to CMTV recently. One and a half year ago the English police announced that they would find the girl in a few days. So far nothing. Scotland Yard's work in Portugal is discussed by all in a very critical way. "They haven't done anything that our PJ hasn't done years ago," stated a Portuguese in the same area. The searches are causing discontent among tourists and locals as they consider them detrimental to tourism, now that the peak season begins.

Show Off

The British police wanted the searches to be accompanied by the media but the PJ refused. Since the 2nd of June, Praia da Luz in Lagos has a large team of policemen, geologists, archaeologists, cutting edge technology and also sniffer dogs. They all come from England "under the supervision of PJ and the Public Prosecutor Office". In addition there are PJ inspectors, GNR military officers on foot and horseback and Portuguese forest sappers. A setting worthy of a Hollywood blockbuster movie.

Stones, socks and bottles

The searches and excavations of the English police in Luz highlights the acknowledgement that they are looking for a body. The PJ had reached that same conclusion seven years ago. The English police began by excavating a field near Rua 25 de Abril, 600 metres away from the apartment from where the girl disappeared. An area equal to three football fields, a slope hill, which belongs to the Belmiro de Azevedo Group [SONAE] and is frequented by locals and tourists for leisurely walks. They collected animal bones, two cannabis plants, stones, soil samples, a sock and bottles and kept everything in boxes.

Nothing

There are no findings to sustain the theory of the British authorities. They argue that Maddie's body is in that place or that there are clues that may lead to her whereabouts. They also claim that they have a group of eight suspects(?). Explaining that they have extended the searches because they have concluded (only now?) that the terrain is more difficult to analyse than predicted. These places had already been thoroughly searched by the Portuguese police immediately after the disappearance of the girl. In fact, until September 11, 2007, the PJ had investigated over 2500 false leads.

Millions of Euros

The 37 officers of the London Metropolitan Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine have cost the British Crown about 6 million pounds (7.4 million euros). Besides the first investigation, Portugal has had a team of six inspectors of the PJ in Faro, for months, just to carry out the steps requested by the British and another team of inspectors from the Northern Directorate of PJ, doing a review of the first investigation for the last two years. No one has, so far, established the total cost to our country. The McCanns moved in early July 2007 to the Villa Vista Mar. At the average values of the property market at the time, the total rent was calculated to have surpassed 6000 euros. The Renault Scénic where biological traces were found, allegedly belonging to Maddie, was rented for 113 days, at the list price it cost 7990 euros.

Maddie

3 May 2007
In Praia da Luz in the Algarve, the parents of Madeleine, who would be four years old just a few days later, cried "abduction" when they noticed Maddie had disappeared from the apartment where they had left her alone with her ​​younger twin siblings. "Homicide", said the PJ a few days later. After a lot of press, suspects, searches, investigations to everyone's taste and seven years later, there is nothing.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html

Rather gives one the impression that there are those in Portugal who are none too pleased that the Met and the PJ are progressing Madeleine McCann's case so positively.

When that happens it brings to mind ... Cui Bono? ... if not those who already know what happened to madeleine.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline jassi

Re: Praia Da Luz Church
« Reply #194 on: June 15, 2014, 08:42:19 PM »
Rather gives one the impression that there are those in Portugal who are none too pleased that the Met and the PJ are progressing Madeleine McCann's case so positively.

When that happens it brings to mind ... Cui Bono? ... if not those who already know what happened to madeleine.

Oh, has some progress been made? Do tell what it is, as I haven't noticed.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future