Author Topic: If Madeleine was heard crying by Mrs Fenn why didnt the McCanns check on her?  (Read 28528 times)

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Offline Carana

If Mrs Fenn was such a crucial witness, why was she not interviewed until about 6 weeks after the crime (particularly as the witness in closest proximity to the crime as the crime was being committed).

And why is Mrs Fenn on record as saying that she didn't even know the McCanns were living in the holiday apartment?

Six weeks? Luz has kindly provided the proof that her interview took place on 20 August. I'm not aware of a previous one.

Offline DCI

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Six weeks? Luz has kindly provided the proof that her interview took place on 20 August. I'm not aware of a previous one.

Only link to an earlier one is Murat. He told a GNR officer.
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Offline j.rob

Re: if maddie was heard crying by mrs fenn why didnt the mcanns check on her
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2013, 06:38:59 PM »
So, according to the statement made by Mrs Fenn to the police, she heard a child cry on the evening of 1st May for an hour an a quarter from 10.30pm until 11.45pm. She was concerned enough to talk to a friend about it as the crying became 'more expressive' as it went on. And the child cried out: 'Daddy, daddy'.

There is no reason to believe that the neighbour lied to police. Why would she?She was concerned enough to speak to a friend about it.

 In actual fact, I encountered a situation recently where a child was crying quite loudly in a neighbour's house and sounded distressed. I listened for about 5 minutes. I could hear the voice of the child becoming more anguished. I hesitated. What should I do? In the end I opened the window that looked over the property so I could ascertain more clearly what was going on. I believe at this point that which ever adult was in the house then went into the child's room to calm them down. Another 5 minutes of the kind of crying I had heard and I would have knocked on the front door and expressed concern. An hour and a quarter of distressed crying when I believed there was no adult supervision, or at least inadequate adult supervision - I would have called the police.

Mrs Fenn considered that the child was older than a toddler (in other words more likely to have been Madeleine than the twins). In any event, whether it was Madeleine or the twins, one and a quarter hours of 'expressive' crying at that time in the evening when you would reasonable expect very young children to be extremely tired is not a good sign. It suggests that either there was no adult supervision for the duration of an hour and a quarter which I would suggest, given the ages of the children, is verging on child negligence/neglect; or there was an adult (or more than one adult) present but they were not comforting or calming the child.

Why would that be?

And then we have Kate McCann claiming that Maddie asked both her and Gerry on the morning of Madeleine's alleged abduction 'why did you not come when the twins cried last night?'

If true, this statement would appear to confirm that the McCann parents were, indeed, in the habit of leaving their children alone to cry at night. However, the parents did not express any guilt or shame over this or apologize to their daughter for failing to provide comfort, or reassure her that they would not let that happen again, which is what you would expect and hope for. I imagine it must have been quite scary for Madeleine to know that on at least two occasions her parents had not responded to either her or her siblings crying. However, the parents merely noted that 'she said it in passing' and then 'she dropped it'. How curious. This seems to suggest that the onus was on their three year old daughter to press them on this, rather than the onus being on them, as parents, to reassure and comfort a three year old about being left alone crying in an apartment with two year old siblings.

But curiouser still, what did they then do - how did they modify their behaviour in the light of what Maddie had supposedly said to them.  Well, the following evening they left them all alone again with the same system of checking that had lead to all that crying - and, a system which is going to allow a stranger to abduct their child, or so they say.

Rather than showing remorse for ignoring their children's cries, it appears that the McCann's mentioned this alleged comment by Madeleine as a boost to the abduction theory. It raised the possibility that someone had disturbed one of the children when they were sleeping, leading to the crying. In fact, the parents suggested that the abductor entered the apartment the previous evening. They also believed the abductor drugged the children.

How could they be so sure about all this? There is no evidence that a stranger entered the apartment. They alleged that the shutters had been jammed or broken but again there is no evidence for this. If they really believed that the abductor had drugged the children, why were toxicology tests not carried out on the twins? Surely this would be crucial. Why were the twins not woken up and taken to a safe place rather than left alone while Kate ran out of the apartment? The abductor could still have been there or could have had an accomplice (it was a paedophile ring, so they claimed, so more than one person involved).

What a strange Alice in Wonderland world the McCanns seem to live in. They are not worried about child abduction so are happy to leave their children alone at night. But when one of their children disappears they suddenly become convinced that it is abduction - by a paedophile no less. They are sure that Madeleine didn't wander off because 'she would never leave the twins on their own' - good grief, so Madeleine was the babysitter, was she? Madeleine would never leave the twins on their own but it is quite alright for the McCann parents to leave their three children under 4 on their own.

Exactly who is doing the parenting here?

And having left the children on their own, allowing for the opportunity of a paedeophile abduction (even though they never thought it was a risk) the responsibility for the safety of their three year old then passes out of the hands of those who showed a lack of responsibility into the hands of a paedophile abductor. And now the responsibility for Madeleine's 'safe return' is in the hands of the general public who are urged to donate money to the fund.



ferryman

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Mrs Fenn made a deposition to the PJ


if you care to know the translation go to http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

Almost 4 months.

I stand corrected.

Evidently not an important witness so far as the PJ was concerned.

And she is on record as saying she didn't even know a family had moved in to the holiday apartment below.

The crime of which she herself was a victim does get a mention, right at the foot of her interview about events of May 3rd ....

Offline Carana

Almost 4 months.

I stand corrected.

Evidently not an important witness so far as the PJ was concerned.

And she is on record as saying she didn't even know a family had moved in to the holiday apartment below.

The crime of which she herself was a victim does get a mention, right at the foot of her interview about events of May 3rd ....


It's not clear to what extent the attempted burglary in her apartment had been investigated, nor the other one in a different apartment.

Wouldn't a simple burglary have been dealt with by the GNR? If so, did the GNR and the PJ have any common database (if any) at the time? If not, how did the GNR and the PJ interact and share information with respect to their different spheres of responsibility?

Offline DCI

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Re: if maddie was heard crying by mrs fenn why didnt the mcanns check on her
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2013, 07:05:46 PM »
So, according to the statement made by Mrs Fenn to the police, she heard a child cry on the evening of 1st May for an hour an a quarter from 10.30pm until 11.45pm. She was concerned enough to talk to a friend about it as the crying became 'more expressive' as it went on. And the child cried out: 'Daddy, daddy'.

There is no reason to believe that the neighbour lied to police. Why would she?She was concerned enough to speak to a friend about it.

I find a few things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.

1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten.
Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.

2. She rang her friend Edna to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.

3. She listened to crying for and hour and 15 minutes, and did nothing.

4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.

5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.

Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.

If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?

ETA. Correct time!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 08:03:37 PM by DCI »
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Offline faithlilly

Re: if maddie was heard crying by mrs fenn why didnt the mcanns check on her
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2013, 07:17:55 PM »
I find a few things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.

1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten.
Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.

2. She rang her friend Edna to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.

3. She listened to crying for and hour and 45 minutes, and did nothing.

4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.

5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.

Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.

If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?

Link please to Murat's statement regarding Mrs Fenn ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Benice

Spreading myths... Benice !
Durante uma hora e quinze minutos, entre as
22 h 30 e as 23 h 45, Madeleine chora dentro do apartamento em que
se encontra com os seus dois irmãos, ao mesmo tempo que chama
pelo pai. Só pára de chorar quando os pais regressam a casa.

I think you'll understand what 22h30 and 23h45 mean.Mrs Fenn's statement is in the files. Haven't you read it ?

I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried.    It was a genuine error - for which I apologise:  The rest of my post stands.

From Amarals book

Tuesday May 1st.
 
 For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.

Wednesday May 2nd 

At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE


Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.

Amaral lies about the date:    It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.

Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.

His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe.   His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO
 



The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
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AnneGuedes

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It's not clear to what extent the attempted burglary in her apartment had been investigated, nor the other one in a different apartment.

Wouldn't a simple burglary have been dealt with by the GNR? If so, did the GNR and the PJ have any common database (if any) at the time? If not, how did the GNR and the PJ interact and share information with respect to their different spheres of responsibility?
All questions the GNR and the PJ are the only entities which could reply to, Carana. Why do you insist on asking on this forum ? It doesn't make sense, unless..

AnneGuedes

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I even remember just now that I offered to translate a letter with your questions.

ferryman

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It's not clear to what extent the attempted burglary in her apartment had been investigated, nor the other one in a different apartment.

Wouldn't a simple burglary have been dealt with by the GNR? If so, did the GNR and the PJ have any common database (if any) at the time? If not, how did the GNR and the PJ interact and share information with respect to their different spheres of responsibility?

Mrs Fenn's interview (with the PJ) was first billed as an interview about the attempted burglary of her flat.

AnneGuedes

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I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried.    It was a genuine error - for which I apologise:  The rest of my post stands.

From Amarals book

Tuesday May 1st.
 
 For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.

Wednesday May 2nd 

At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE


Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.

Amaral lies about the date:    It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.

Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.

His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe.   His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO
How could Mrs Fenn name a child, she didn't know this family ? She said she heard a child, not a toddler. Madeleine was the only child in that side of the building.
Instead of accusing Mr Amaral to lie about the date (without explaining why he should lie), you should perhaps note that Mrs McCann took good care to never suggest when the crying episode reported by Madeleine happened.
When the McCanns say something, the fact isn't this something, but that they said it.
Concerning the attempt of Mr Amaral to merge both episodes (Mrs Fenn's and alleged Madeleine's). I don't think he should have done it, but I can't find any malice in this.
My question here is : what do you think Mr Amaral is trying to put in the reader's head ?

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: If Madeleine was heard crying by Mrs Fenn why didnt the McCanns check on
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2013, 08:39:33 PM »
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id356.html
Mrs Pamela Fenn - statement, 20 August 2007

'She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
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Offline DCI

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How could Mrs Fenn name a child, she didn't know this family ? She said she heard a child, not a toddler. Madeleine was the only child in that side of the building.
Instead of accusing Mr Amaral to lie about the date (without explaining why he should lie), you should perhaps note that Mrs McCann took good care to never suggest when the crying episode reported by Madeleine happened.
When the McCanns say something, the fact isn't this something, but that they said it.
Concerning the attempt of Mr Amaral to merge both episodes (Mrs Fenn's and alleged Madeleine's). I don't think he should have done it, but I can't find any malice in this.
My question here is : what do you think Mr Amaral is trying to put in the reader's head ?

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

How much difference is there between the cry of a 2 year old to a 3 year old?. Of course it was with malice, he said it was Madeleine, it suited him to do so.
Amaral was/did put into readers heads his version of events.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 08:48:03 PM by DCI »
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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: If Madeleine was heard crying by Mrs Fenn why didnt the McCanns check on
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2013, 08:45:20 PM »
I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried.    It was a genuine error - for which I apologise:  The rest of my post stands.

From Amarals book

Tuesday May 1st.
 
 For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.

Wednesday May 2nd 

At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE


Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.

Amaral lies about the date:    It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.

Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.

His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe.   His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
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