Author Topic: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!  (Read 153945 times)

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Offline slartibartfast

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1290 on: February 23, 2015, 01:55:09 PM »


Joana- most of the evidence is not available. I would like to know which priest was standing in for Fr. Domingos Costa during the week Joana disappeared. I do think the convictions are unsafe.

So without evidence you think the convictions are unsafe?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline misty

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1291 on: February 23, 2015, 02:07:21 PM »
So without evidence you think the convictions are unsafe?

The forensics were destroyed. The saw was never found. The "confessions" were many & varied. Beatings took place.
Yes, I'd say the convictions were unsafe. But then, I'm not Portuguese.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1292 on: February 23, 2015, 06:09:09 PM »
The forensics were destroyed. The saw was never found. The "confessions" were many & varied. Beatings took place.
Yes, I'd say the convictions were unsafe. But then, I'm not Portuguese.

Plenty of forensic samples...

On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.


www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg112348#msg112348
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1293 on: February 23, 2015, 06:33:43 PM »
Plenty of forensic samples...

On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.


www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg112348#msg112348

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1294 on: February 23, 2015, 06:36:54 PM »
Plenty of forensic samples...

On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.


www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg112348#msg112348

The DNA wasn't matched to Joana, perhaps Leonor & Joao slaughtered a pig in the living room.
Free Christian Brueckner.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1295 on: February 23, 2015, 07:08:43 PM »
The DNA wasn't matched to Joana, perhaps Leonor & Joao slaughtered a pig in the living room.

There's a thread on the forensic evidence... or rather the lack of it.

There is nothing in the report that appears to anything more than a nicked finger and a mop-up of meat juice in the kitchen /living area.

The forensics didn't even turn up until 2 weeks later... meanwhile, the entire family, minus Joana, continued to live there.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1296 on: February 23, 2015, 07:12:47 PM »
There's a thread on the forensic evidence... or rather the lack of it.

There is nothing in the report that appears to anything more than a nicked finger and a mop-up of meat juice in the kitchen /living area.

The forensics didn't even turn up until 2 weeks later... meanwhile, the entire family, minus Joana, continued to live there.

Nicked fingers & mopped up meat juice, great work Sherlock.

I'm sticking with the obvious.
Free Christian Brueckner.

Offline Anna

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1297 on: February 23, 2015, 07:47:47 PM »
PROOF
 Alda Casimiro concluded PROOF
Alda Casimiro concluded "there is no direct evidence of the facts (...) not even the murder."
The judge admitted that the decision to order the defendants relied on facts "legally relevant." COURT "


Leonor and João used disproportionate force in relation to an eight year old only stopping [hitting] when killed, although it bleed through the nose , mouth and temple, "read on the judgment of conviction.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/defesa-e-acusacao-recorrem-da-
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1298 on: February 23, 2015, 07:52:03 PM »
PROOF
 Alda Casimiro concluded PROOF
Alda Casimiro concluded "there is no direct evidence of the facts (...) not even the murder."
The judge admitted that the decision to order the defendants relied on facts "legally relevant." COURT "


Leonor and João used disproportionate force in relation to an eight year old only stopping [hitting] when killed, although it bleed through the nose , mouth and temple, "read on the judgment of conviction.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/defesa-e-acusacao-recorrem-da-

Someone made that up.  There was never any proof of any such thing.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1299 on: February 23, 2015, 08:01:19 PM »
Nicked fingers & mopped up meat juice, great work Sherlock.

I'm sticking with the obvious.

So am I.

There is nothing remotely suspicious in the account of the forensics results concerning blood. Rather odd, considering the blood bath that was supposed to have occurred.

The only mystery concerns the so-called semen trace on a pair of her knickers.

However:

a) it's not clear whether it actually was a trace of semen or not (the so-called semen stain in 5A turned out to be a baby's saliva once a proper test was done in a lab);

b) whatever the trace was, her knickers were apparently in a basket of general laundry. If it was semen, there is  no way of knowing whether its presence was due to someone having abused her, or whether it was due to contamination as a result of being in the basket along with other people's clothes.

c) the identity of the donor of this so-called semen (or whatever it actually was) was never determined.

d) strangely, sexual abuse wasn't even part of the PJ's hypothesis.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1300 on: February 23, 2015, 08:02:13 PM »
So am I.

There is nothing remotely suspicious in the account of the forensics results concerning blood. Rather odd, considering the blood bath that was supposed to have occurred.

The only mystery concerns the so-called semen trace on a pair of her knickers.

However:

a) it's not clear whether it actually was a trace of semen or not (the so-called semen stain in 5A turned out to be a baby's saliva once a proper test was done in a lab);

b) whatever the trace was, her knickers were apparently in a basket of general laundry. If it was semen, there is  no way of knowing whether its presence was due to someone having abused her, or whether it was due to contamination as a result of being in the basket along with other people's clothes.

c) the identity of the donor of this so-called semen (or whatever it actually was) was never determined.

d) strangely, sexual abuse wasn't even part of the PJ's hypothesis.

Her uncle made a taped confession to the police, which was shown in court, in which he described how he, & his sister, had laid into that poor defenceless 8 year old child.

Course, he was only pulling their legs weren't he.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html
Free Christian Brueckner.

Offline Anna

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1301 on: February 23, 2015, 08:03:02 PM »
Someone made that up.  There was never any proof of any such thing.

Sorry///What are you referring too, Eleanor? There was no evidence of proof of anything let alone that they murdered Joanna, but the confession, whether given freely or not, was accidental killing. We know how much media manipulation there was and even this link is not as it was originally.
The reconstitution by Joao on video, was accepted as a confession against both of them, even although they opted for silence(as is allowed in Portugal)
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1302 on: February 23, 2015, 08:11:56 PM »
Sorry///What are you referring too, Eleanor? There was no evidence of proof of anything let alone that they murdered Joanna, but the confession, whether given freely or not, was accidental killing. We know how much media manipulation there was and even this link is not as it was originally.
The reconstitution by Joao on video, was accepted as a confession against both of them, even although they opted for silence(as is allowed in Portugal)

About hitting Joana and her bleeding through the nose, mouth and temple.

But then The PJ made up the bit about Joana catching her Mother and Uncle having sex.

In fact The PJ made up the whole damn thing.

Whoops.  PS.  In My Opinion.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1303 on: February 23, 2015, 08:19:27 PM »
About hitting Joana and her bleeding through the nose, mouth and temple.

But then The PJ made up the bit about Joana catching her Mother and Uncle having sex.

In fact The PJ made up the whole damn thing.

Whoops.  PS.  In My Opinion.

They invented Joao's taped confession?

CGI, maybe, I suppose it's possible.

It's a wonder he didn't challenge it in court really, given that he's the innocent uncle of a missing child.
Free Christian Brueckner.

Offline Anna

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1304 on: February 23, 2015, 08:20:51 PM »
About hitting Joana and her bleeding through the nose, mouth and temple.

But then The PJ made up the bit about Joana catching her Mother and Uncle having sex.

In fact The PJ made up the whole damn thing.

Whoops.  PS.  In My Opinion.

I agree, The marks found on the walls and floor by use of ultra-violet lights, could have been any body fluid and there was plenty of blood from these creepy crawly things they killed.
Now where in this time line do you kill someone and all the macabre bit?
According to the court it was after Joao went to the café to detain Leandro ????????

Copied from a old post of mine
Timeline
Times  Left home around                               8 h pm ???
Arrived at Celia around                                  8h 20pm / 8h 30pm
After shopping  left Celia around                     8h.30Pm / 8h.35pm                                                       
Last time Seen, in proximity to market going to stairs that led to her home           8h.30PM / 8h 40pm
Earliest possible to get home                           8.35pm to 8.40
(I think these are the same witnesses who saw her approaching market So must be near market/steps and opp side of road)

Leandro and pal in Celias at around          9 .00PM according
 to Celia 
Joa leaves the house                               9.10/9.15
Joao arrives at Celias at about                  9. 20PM according to celia lady
They all go home immediately                  9. 25pm according to Leandro
                             
Leona and Joao go to Celia  around          10. 30PM according to celia   
leaving at approx                                    11.pm to go home and according to Celias
John goes home to sit with babies

Leandro and mate go to search  approx   10.00 pm Leonora joins them 11 pm ish
Celia goes to their home to see if joana is back   12mn
Leonor, Leandro and pal are just returning          12 mn and decide to go search some more with Celia  at                                                           12.30 ish
Leonor and Joao’s brother, is around as well… At Celia, church where Leonor saw GNR,
cockle feast and their home I believe
Leonor and johns brother sees them all around 11.30
Celia helps search and phones police approx        12.30/40
Leonora informs GNR near the church. who tells her to report it tomorrow

==============================================
If Joana got home earliest 8.35 the evil deed would be done 9.15 latest, this includes getting cleaned and changed before Joao left for celias 9.15 latest.
 Or  Joana got home 8.40/5 and still would be 9.15 latest
unless Carlos’s times were correct and Celia’s and witnesses were wrong of course as there was a 30 min difference

 30 to 35 mins to argue with the child, kill her, decide what to do, and argue with each other, conceal the body, clean the walls and floors and get washed and changed , not to mention laundry and clothing concealment. Nah !
Even an extra 30 mins wouldn’t convince me
 And when the men got back from Celia at 9.25/35 , Leandro and Carlos noticed nothing different about the house clean wise, which would have, freshly washed floors, surely?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.35/8.40       to 8.40/8.45 trying to pull the child back and argue
8.40/8.45       to 8.50/8.55 hitting the child until she fell lifeless
8.50/8.55       to 9.00/9.05  Argue with each other and decide what to do
9.00/9.05       to 9.10/9.15  Conceal Body
9.10/9.15       to 9.15/9.20  Washed and changed
These are the shortest times that I believe possible
Now Joao has to leave at 9.15 the latest, to be at celia for 9.20
Leonor is left to wash, change, clean the walls, the floors and conceal bloody laundry before the men return at 9.30 ?????????????



When was all the really macabre stuff suppose to happen ??????????????????

  OK I have checked back.....................According to 2006 appeal it was when Joao went back to the house at 9.30 ish,after waylaying Leandro and Carlos who then supposedly had gone searching ???????

 but I believe (according to statements) that they all went home first and then they went with Leonor, searching for Joana
                                           This cant be right !!!
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato