Author Topic: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.  (Read 53527 times)

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Offline Rogerandout

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EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches.
He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

The E.R.V.D. has successfully in training and in operational casework located
Human cadaders, whether in the whole or parts thereof, deposited surface or
sub-surface to a depth of approximately 1 metre shortly after death (though
precise times are not determinable) to the advanced stages of decomposition
and putrefaction through the skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if
large quantities of accelerant have been involved. The dog has successfully in
training and in operational casework located a human cadavers in water either
from the bank siade or when deployed in a boat.

The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where
there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious
material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. This may be
achieved by the dog being deployed directly to the subject area or by scent
samples being taken by remote means on sterile gauze pads. The gauze
pads are then 'screened' in a line - up formation with the inclusion of a number
of control samples and blank sterile pads.

The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or
some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to
identify the venting or exhaust channels of the scent through fissures in
bedrock or watercourses. A geophysical survey of the area will then reduce
the size of the search area.

The dog may be used to screen clothing, vehicles or property in a suitable
environment. This is completed in a scent discrimination exercise where
controls may be included to increase assurity.

Vol IX p. 2481

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.
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Offline Rogerandout

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 02:02:56 PM »
Whilst it is stated that the E.V.RD. is originally trained using pig the following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:

P In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

> The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'

P Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence / anecdotal witness accounts.

> The dog, a scavenger, uses its olfactory system to locate food sources, identify its young and other pack members, enemies and predators over large distances. It can track its prey identifying a direction of travel. This entails the dog being able to discriminate the time difference between footsteps using the sense of smell !

> The dog is an animal that's basic function in the wild is to scavenge food and procreate.

> In a domestic environment it responds to humans as a food source and bonds in the manner it would with other pack members.

> The reward of food and protection / close comfort provides the basis for a system to be adopted where the dog shows a willingness to respond in response to the reward. We are thereby able to 'train' the dog using conditioned responses to stimuli. Repetition and reward then ensure efficiency. Positive and negative reinforcement then shape the required behaviour in their role.

P Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response.

> Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour shaping and enforcement regime produces an asset that does not false alert unlike electronic devices.
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Offline Rogerandout

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 02:05:16 PM »
In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in

 petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.


http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
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Offline Rogerandout

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 05:12:32 PM »
Can all these statements be correct:

1/ The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches.

2/ 'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

3/ the E.V.RD. is originally trained using pig

4/ In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
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Cariad

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 05:16:30 PM »
considering how common pork is and how rare decaying bodies are, wouldn't a EVRD  who alerted to a roast dinner become useless very, very quickly?

Offline Rogerandout

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 05:22:41 PM »
considering how common pork is and how rare decaying bodies are, wouldn't a EVRD  who alerted to a roast dinner become useless very, very quickly?

This thread is not about that, but about Mr Grime's statements. All cannot be true in my view.
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 05:28:11 PM »
This thread is not about that, but about Mr Grime's statements. All cannot be true in my view.

And is your view more significant than that of other armchair detectives?
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Cariad

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 05:30:10 PM »
This thread is not about that, but about Mr Grime's statements. All cannot be true in my view.

Ok, so we're just playing semantics here....

Yes, I think that Mr Grime's should not have used the word 'pork' if referring to decaying pig flesh that had not been butchered for human consumption.


Lyall

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 05:37:46 PM »
Roger, I would ask the American police 8(>((

Offline Lace

Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 05:49:52 PM »
considering how common pork is and how rare decaying bodies are, wouldn't a EVRD  who alerted to a roast dinner become useless very, very quickly?

The thing is Cariad the dog is trained to work when given the signal.   

Eddie wouldn't probably alert walking past a grave yard unless Grime took him in there and give the order to find.

Offline Lace

Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 05:54:23 PM »
Also,  as some have pointed out on the previous thread,   Eddie might well have been trained using human bodies,  but as they cannot tell human body decomposition from pork decomposition it is neither here nor there.

They use pigs hearts for transplant into humans.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 05:57:55 PM by Lace »

Redblossom

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Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 06:10:49 PM »
Also,  as some have pointed out on the previous thread,   Eddie might well have been trained using human bodies,  but as they cannot tell human body decomposition from pork decomposition it is neither here nor there.

They use pigs hearts for transplant into humans.

What exactly is "neither here nor there" ?

A definitive clear  answer/statement please instead of dancing around the issue......

Offline Lace

Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 06:11:54 PM »
What exactly is "neither here nor there" ?

A definitive clear  answer/statement please instead of dancing around the issue......

It means the fact that Eddie was trained using human bodies is immaterial.

Offline pegasus

Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 06:13:15 PM »
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube).
3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds
"piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat"
Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place.
Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.

Offline Lace

Re: Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 06:15:05 PM »
A missing man in California (video of search with 3 dogs and an excavator on youtube).
3 dogs all indicate the same small area of land, excavator digs and 5 feet down finds
"piles and piles bags and bags of meat big roasts and hunks of meat"
Meat is removed and doesn't interest the dogs, who continue to indicate the same place.
Excavator digs a further 5 feet down, and bullseye.

What meat was it?   Pork?