Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.

[Redblossom]

Human remains (pelvic cavity) 1:20

thats a brilliant video and it refers to 100 yr old remains not 5000 aka ancient egyptian aka took their pet cats to their tombs.....so that eddie reacted to them and not the humans remains
Not that eddie reacts to dead cats anyway...or sausages....or nappies with pooh...or all the other ridiculous things postulated to demean the alerts

 @)(++(*

[John]

So was it 100-year-old pelvic remains that Eddie alerted to in Praia da Luz?

[pegasus]

An expert who has done serious research describes the different forensic chemical signatures of human and pig at 11:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Qd2nxMC2Y

P.S. includes audio output from a "LABRADOR" machine showing big difference between human and pig

[John]

The opening post asks the question "Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood?"

We are then told that Eddie was initially trained using dead piglets so we must assume from this that he did indeed react to animal cadaver. 

Next we are told that Eddie never reacted to road kill.

My question is this.  Due to his initial training, did Eddie have a preference for pig to the exclusion of all other animals?

[Redblossom]

The opening post asks the question "Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood?"

We are then told that Eddie was initially trained using dead piglets so we must assume from this that he did indeed react to animal cadaver. 

Next we are told that Eddie never reacted to road kill.

My question is this.  Due to his initial training, did Eddie have a preference for pig to the exclusion of all other animals?

Eddies been trained on dead pigs and dead humans....and nothng else.....he never reacted to any other dead animals..because his training is to cadaver scent of pigs and humans both of which are very similar......

[ferryman]

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.

The E.R.V.D. has successfully in training and in operational casework located
Human cadaders, whether in the whole or parts thereof, deposited surface or
sub-surface to a depth of approximately 1 metre shortly after death (though
precise times are not determinable) to the advanced stages of decomposition
and putrefaction through the skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if
large quantities of accelerant have been involved. The dog has successfully in
training and in operational casework located a human cadavers in water either
from the bank siade or when deployed in a boat.

The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where
there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious
material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. This may be
achieved by the dog being deployed directly to the subject area or by scent
samples being taken by remote means on sterile gauze pads. The gauze
pads are then 'screened' in a line - up formation with the inclusion of a number
of control samples and blank sterile pads.

The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or
some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to
identify the venting or exhaust channels of the scent through fissures in
bedrock or watercourses. A geophysical survey of the area will then reduce
the size of the search area.

The dog may be used to screen clothing, vehicles or property in a suitable
environment. This is completed in a scent discrimination exercise where
controls may be included to increase assurity.

Vol IX p. 2481

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.

Eddie cannot have been 'sold' in PDL as reacting to blood, or else there would have been no need to ask Grime, in his rogatory interview, to confirm that he did.

Actually, I've looked at that again.   Grime does state in his rogatory that Eddie reacts to blood, but that appeared to be a statement in answer to a question predicated on the assumption that he did.

So that's probably wrong.

[pathfinder73]

'Can the dog mix up traces of human odours with others that are non-human''

 I cannot comment on what the dogs think. However, from a forensic point of view and from confirmations of scientific testimonies, the dogs appear to be extremely exact. But, forensic confirmation is required in all cases so as to be included as proof. The CSI dog is trained using only human blood. And using a wide spectrum of donors to ensure that the dog does not individualize them.
 EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.

[Redblossom]

Take it or leave it ...

 He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm



The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The dog  has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm


Take it or leave it!

Why are youcalling Grime a liar?  Evidence please!

[ferryman]

Oh calling Mr Grime a liar and a fraud now, yet again.........shame on you....pls provide proof of your pathetic assertion.....

Here is the acpo dog-training manual.

SYP confirmed in an FOI answer that Eddie was trained according to it.

Perhaps you'd care to tell us where, in it, it says anything about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains?

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf

[Redblossom]

Here is the acpo dog-training manual.

SYP confirmed in an FOI answer that Eddie was trained according to it.

Perhaps you'd care to tell us where, in it, it says anything about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains?

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/201103UOPDogsMoG1.1.pdf

Youre having a laugh.....a training manual? Since when has a training manual been any reflection on reality? personell can adhere to 100% of a training manual but go beyond...

... moderated ...

[ferryman]

Youre having a laugh.....a training manual? Since when has a training manual been any reflection on reality?

... moderated ...

In England and the UK use of human body-parts for any reason (including medical) is outlawed as illegal and there is all hell to pay when evidence is uncovered that such a thing has happened.

Alder Hey is a classic example.

Given that, and given, also, that we have a tried-and-trusted alternative method of training cadaver dogs in England using pigs and pig cadaver scents, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?

And if we are to indulge that expense and hypocrisy, why ever on a dog (at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone) then aged about 5, and just 18 months from retirement?

The truth is known.

In the New Year 2006, Grime made a trip to the States (without dogs) to discuss  Keela, then, actually an unusual dog of her kind, in whom the Americans had expressed an interest.

The poster poacher claims to have been an associate of Grime and to have seen the report of that trip.

He says the Americans were unimpressed.

Whatever the truth of that, Grime ceased to be an employee of SYP in August 2007.

According to poacher, the (unsuccessful) trip to America was a large part of the reason ...

[pegasus]

Serious research

In a paper appearing in Forensic Science International, Dr. Cablk, Erin Szelagowski, and John Sagabiel analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and compared the chemicals found with what could be expected from human decomposition.  The animal remains were from cows, pigs, and chickens.  The researchers found that the “VOC signatures” of the animal remains differed from each other, but also from humans.

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/training-cadaver-dogs-on-pig-remains.html

[ferryman]

Getting back to the OP, when a dog has been trained to react in a certain way, and rewarded for doing so, that reaction cannot be "unlearned".

Eddie would certainly react to pork-based products.

[pegasus]

Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672

[Lyall]

Getting back to the OP, when a dog has been trained to react in a certain way, and rewarded for doing so, that reaction cannot be "unlearned".

Eddie would certainly react to pork-based products.

A dog that alerted for the reward wouldn't have a long career. They are trained by professionals.

Did you guys who don't like the dogs get hold of the trial transcripts from Detroit?