Does Eddie alert to Pork/Pig/Pig Blood? Martin Grime's Statements.

[Albertini]

As a middle class professional of means, I would have done exactly the same if I thought the police intended to arrest and imprison me on flimsy evidence. Maybe you would not and would have been a noble martyr.

What in Portugal? It's hardly Saudi Arabia, is it?

[Rogerandout]

Eddie found the only evidence in both cases. Cadaver odour in the burnt out car (no forensic evidence found in car) and Prout's home. Eddie also found Harron's body. He found it!

The prosecutor did not mention that in the summery of the evidence- there was plenty of other evidence.

I have never said that cadaver dog indications are not useful, just that they are circumstantial and open to error.

Of course they find corpses- that is there job.

Sometimes they don't find corpses and that means that eiother the corpse was removed, or they and their handler have alerted incorrectly.

[Rogerandout]

What in Portugal? It's hardly Saudi Arabia, is it?

Wasn't there a touch of torture in a previous case?

And anyway, as Kate and Gerry said, the prospect of being separated from each other and their kids was a compelling reason to leave.

As it turned out, Amaral had hardly enough evidence to arguido them, let alone arrest them and keep them in prison- but that was what the 48 questions suggested was his aim.

The decamped rationally with PJ support.

[Mr Gray]

Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.

And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.

My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.

Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.

Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.

Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.

 first neither you nor anyone else on this forum has the knowledge or the expertise to make any valid interpretation of the dogs alerts.

secondly...fleeing from Portugal seems a very normal and sensible reaction having realised that they could be arrested and held on remand for anything up to  a year whilst awaiting  trial

[Albertini]

first neither you nor anyone else on this forum has the knowledge or the expertise to make any valid interpretation of the dogs alerts.

Correct! Which is why i have always stated I'm happy to take Grimes' sworn statements and methods as being correct and at face value.

Unlike of course Ferryman who gives the impression he is some kind of expert in this field but who has just admitted he has no knowledge other than what he has read following a few Google searches.

I think therefore you should be aiming that barb at Ferryman and not me.

secondly...fleeing from Portugal seems a very normal and sensible reaction having realised that they could be arrested and held on remand for anything up to  a year whilst awaiting  trial

Only if there was the evidence there to hold them. If they had done nothing wrong, they should have nothing to worry about, should they?

[Wonderfulspam]

Didn't take much to change their minds did it ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474367/Madeleines-mother-We-wont-bullied-Portugal.html


 A defiant Kate McCann has insisted that she and her husband will not be hounded out of Portugal.
As the vilification of the couple continued in Praia da Luz, she said: "Sticks and stones... we will never go through anything worse than being parted from Madeleine.

"We will not be leaving or be forced out. I am not prepared to be bullied into doing something that I don't want to."

'On the flight to Berlin, Gerry wearily admitted the couple's campaign to find Madeleine could last years.

They refuse to leave Praia da Luz while their precious daughter is still missing.

Asked how long they might stay there, he said: "Well, our kids don't start school for three years."'

Daily Mirror, 07 June 2007

[Carana]

A further problem for Mr Grime's consistency:

I found this quote from the Orkney Case:

"Mr Grime told the court that Eddie's nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell."

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Martin-Grime/1451898808

If cadaver odor is so transferable, why did not all the clothes in the boxes lead to alerts from Eddie?

What is that assertion based on? What's the background to that? Was it based on a single training exercise involving a few hours? Or more than that?

What is meant by - or rather interpreted as - a "false positive"?
As a post-sex clean-up tissue was also within the parameters of his training... reacting to that wouldn't be a false positive, but was deemed irrelevant to the investigation in question.

No suggestion on my part concerning the case (just a general question), but if he had reacted to an old pig bone during even a training exercise (and therefore in "work mode) ... would that be a false positive or not? Would a child's milk tooth be a false positive? Would reacting to a used band-aid be a false positive?

[Carana]

On some of the anecdotal evidence, could someone please explain this one to me?


There are many instances such as this.

The most poignant being :
When 'Keela' was nine months old she was tasked to search an open fishing boat, contaminated by rotting fish flesh and BLOOD.
A missing person was believed to have killed on the boat.
The dog located and alerted to a blood sample that was so small that when LOW
COPY analysed was reported as being PRIMATE and an uncompleted sample.
There are only two scenarios to suit this find. The blood was either human or a gorilla went out in a boat fishing ! !

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

I have never understood this.

[Carana]

Well as i have stated given the advanced nature and ingenuity of modern terrorist bomb makers you are a braver man than me.

And really the only way to test ones opinion of the science behind these dogs is to put yourself in a position where you actually had to make your own choice about the reliability of them when your own safety was at stake. Hence the bomb analogy.

My own take is that these alerts represent indications. These indications have to be weighed up against the number of searches undertaken and the concentration of the alerts to see if a pattern develops.

Clearly there was a pattern, in that they only alerted to property and possessions belonging to the McCann's.

Whilst this may not be definitive evidence per se it is a starting point with which to investigate further. Although of course the PJ could not because the McCann's fled Portugal and hired certainly the UK's and probably the world's most expensive extradition lawyers before the PJ could complete their investigation into the family.

Which also speaks as loudly as the alerts themselves.

I agree with some of that. If I'd found out that a dog had alerted to several planes, I wouldn't get on any until they had been thoroughly checked. There could always have been a plot to place an incendiary device. But then what? Either there was some kind of plot, or the dog was reacting to something innocuous (in one or more of the planes in question) and the world - and passengers - move on. The point is to check out the indications. What's the alternative... decommission the planes because a dog alerted?

[Albertini]

sic:

... and other EVRD handlers

Interesting.

Care to provide us with a list of who, aside from Grime, are the other EVRD handlers?

There are EVRD handlers in the world other than Grime, and you have, have you not, viewed news reports where other EVRD dogs and handlers have been used in other cases?

If perhaps you don't like the term EVRD (as this may be a term Grime uses himself on his own dogs) it's a bit like using the term Hoover for a vacuum. It's a generic term

It's interesting though that this is the only area  of my post you reply to rather than addressing the central point contained within it.

Speaks volumes...

[ferryman]

The key point, though, is whether you'd be happy about boarding an aircraft 'cleared' (as bomb-free!) by a dog if you knew that dogs had a record of missing bombs (or explosives) actually on aircraft.

[ferryman]

There are EVRD handlers in the world other than Grime, and you have, have you not, viewed news reports where other EVRD dogs and handlers have been used in other cases?

If perhaps you don't like the term EVRD (as this may be a term Grime uses himself on his own dogs) it's a bit like using the term Hoover for a vacuum. It's a generic term

It's interesting though that this is the only area  of my post you reply to rather than addressing the central point contained within it.

Speaks volumes...

So are you going to tell us who they are?

Or must we just take your word that what you say is so?

[Albertini]

So are you going to tell us who they are?

Or must we just take your word that what you say is so?

Oh for heaven's sake all the dogs and handlers used in cases where they have been deployed.

Why are you being so pedantic. How about the Casey Anthony case and the Zapata case to name but two.

Why don't you do a Google search on it after all you appear to be good at Google searching cadaver dogs.

[ferryman]

Oh for heaven's sake all the dogs and handlers used in cases where they have been deployed.

Why are you being so pedantic. How about the Casey Anthony case and the Zapata case to name but two.

Why don't you do a Google search on it after all you appear to be good at Google searching cadaver dogs.

So I take it you can't answer my question?

[Carana]

The key point, though, is whether you'd be happy about boarding an aircraft 'cleared' (as bomb-free!) by a dog if you knew that dogs had a record of missing bombs (or explosives) actually on aircraft.

LOL I've been stuck waiting loads of times due to "security issues" (not necessarily due to dogs, but obviously some kind of alert). Once the all-clear had been given, I took the flight.