Author Topic: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.  (Read 44731 times)

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Lyall

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2013, 04:55:54 PM »
He's a professional. He uses two dogs, and his searches were filmed. Neither of those facts apply to many trainers in other cases, including those whose evidence has been used in courtrooms.

I think the criticism of him is well out of order.

People can criticise the science, nobody could object to that, but they have no justification at all for attacking him personally.

The McCanns haven't (apart from a few insults in their book). People should understand why they haven't.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2013, 04:56:54 PM »
People have been at the very least insulting him here all week (and a lot worse in some cases). Why would he have any interest in speaking?

My thoughts exactly. But then add to that he may not be allowed to comment on certain matters anyway.
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2013, 04:58:05 PM »

More to the point..why would Mr Grime want to answer to a handful of joe publics on a forum..?

That too. 8)--))

Offline lizzibif

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2013, 05:01:44 PM »
That too. 8)--))

Its a on going case so I would think he wouldn't be allowed to speak anyway..

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2013, 05:07:46 PM »
Its a on going case so I would think he wouldn't be allowed to speak anyway..

You'd think not, unless he fancied being on the Express front page 8)-)))

Lyall

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2013, 05:08:44 PM »
Whatever he said would be controversial wouldn't it.

Offline lizzibif

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2013, 05:19:08 PM »
Whatever he said would be controversial wouldn't it.

Cant see it happening to be honest..and I don't think posters are insulting Mr Grime..more like questioning the dogs ability..after watching the video's myself I too question the dogs none reaction to many things..and the amount of times the dog had to be prompted..

Offline Carana

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2013, 06:16:29 PM »
Gonçalo is clear about what happened in his book.  He recalls Tavares de Almeida calling him at 8pm to say that Mark Harrison is not happy with the venue, that the clothes were gathered up again and moved to a cleaner location.

I know, but there's a translation issue on that point. There's a thread here somewhere on it. Without hunting for it again, the translation gives the impression that they were unpacked, then repacked and taken elsewhere; the original says they were taken to a location where they would be laid out, then taken elsewhere, etc.

Amaral wasn't actually there anyway.

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2013, 06:46:55 PM »
My suggestion is that we should invite Martin to come on himself to a question and answer session some evening.  Then hopefully we would get to the truth of it all.

He's done his job, he's been paid for it and he has suffered years of derision for it. He has continued to work successfully in this country and abroad. I can't think of a single reason why he would subject himself to a Q & A session with people who have repeatedly tried to discredit him.

His continued work shows that he hasn't been discredited, or at least not to the people who matter ie law enforcement officials who employ him.

He has nothing to gain from such an action and everything to lose.


Offline Carana

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2013, 06:55:33 PM »
Whether the clothes had been laid out on a grubby parking-lot floor prior to the gym or not, I still don't see the point of the clothes inspection in the first place. What were they hoping to find?

What was Eddie's alert supposed to be to items of interest? Was it the clothes he tossed up in the air? The items he just barked at? The video and the list compiled by the PJ just don't seem to correlate.

Offline pegasus

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2013, 06:56:18 PM »
If you leave your coat in a theatre cloakroom, and during the performance someone briefly hides something in the cloakroom and it touches your coat, and days later police visit you and take your coat away, and a dog like Eddie signals it, does that make you guilty at all? No?. But surely you are guilty for the scent is on your clothes. Sorry you are off to jail.

Offline Angelo222

Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2013, 07:04:01 PM »
I have been told he won't answer any questions at the moment since it is still an open investigation which of course is his prerogative.  Looks like the myths are set to continue for some time to come.

Thanks admin.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:06:28 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2013, 07:08:52 PM »
Gonçalo is clear about what happened in his book.  He recalls Tavares de Almeida calling him at 8pm to say that Mark Harrison is not happy with the venue, that the clothes were gathered up again and moved to a cleaner location.

Do you think it's possible Amaral could have lied?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2013, 07:10:36 PM »
I will piece together the full sequence of events of all the inspections referenced in Harrison's report, then post it up ...

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2013, 07:16:49 PM »
Will add in edits as I go along:

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.


NB: No reference to any vehicle except those owned or driven by Murat

Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

Offshore.

The sea in general circumstances would be immediately attractive to an offender as an easy way of body disposal and so must be considered.
The searches of the coastline was conducted by the Maritime Police and Coastguard. They searched the sea for any body buoyant on the surface and checked the coves and caves.
It could be considered appropriate to conduct research into the tidal flows and movement of the sea in this region and hypothesise where a body may travel if entered at certain points. It has been observed the depth of the sea appears shallow at the relevant area of coastline and this may become an inhibiting factor for any offender wishing to dispose of a body in it.
Overall Summary.

This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases. Should the investigators wish to discuss and develop the issues raised


Then we come to the part that bears close scrutiny, where Harrison makes reference to the places Madeleine never lived in or went near:

In complying with these terms [Harrison's terms of reference] I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
 
The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.
It recommended considering re searching:
 
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
- The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
- Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
- Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
- A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
 
These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
 
This document was discussed on 23-07-07 with the PJ Director, myself and the Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Neil Holden who made relevant notes.
 
On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.
 
On 26-07-07 the PJ Director requested I consider the beach and marine environment at Praia da Luz for re-search and compile a report. I held meetings with coastal dynamic experts from the University of the Algarve in the presence of PJ officers and submitted a report to the PJ on 31-07-07 entitles “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine” (see appendix 3) with copies sent to Leicestershire Police and NPIA.
 
On 30-07-07 a meeting was held with the PJ Director, myself and Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Alan Orchard, who made relevant notes, to discuss the beach and marine environment at Praia da Luz and set a timeline for the PJ to re-search areas.
 
The search process was then initiated and continued over the following eight days. Throughout and at all locations I acted as an observer and search adviser. The PJ appointed a Chief Inspector as a search manager who was present throughout. Additionally, separate PJ officers were appointed to record and map each search location and provide a contemporaneous video commentary of all search activity undertaken. This system of management and recording was based on my reports recommendation to ensure record accuracy, transparency and facilitate any future clarification of any search activity undertaken. It was also essential that the official management and recording of the search was conducted by the Portuguese Police themselves rather than by British officers without any powers and not conversant with Portuguese law and judicial processes.
 
The search process used personnel to physically, intrusively and invasively explore all areas of disturbance, voids and concealment within the areas searched. The search utilised dogs trained to locate human remains and human blood, ground penetrating radar to detect sub surface disturbance and concealment, clearance teams to remove concealing vegetation, endoscopes to search drains and voids and metal probes to search the ground. These teams were supported by experts in Forensic Anthropology for human bone identification and a professor in geophysics.


There is no mention of the gym, and Harrison's role seems, almost, to have been abrogated.   
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:44:07 PM by ferryman »