Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.

[stephen25000]

Rachael Oldfied stayed in next door to 5A all night on the 2nd.  IMO she would have heard any prolonged crying from 5A.     Also IIRC that night Gerry returned first followed by Kate, so Mrs Fenn would have heard the patio doors open twice.

I think there's a chance it may have been JT's little girl who she heard crying on the 1st as  Russell stayed in that night with her because she was feeling poorly. That would explain the 'calling for her daddy'.  The patio door opening which Mrs Fenn heard may have been JT returning from the restaurant.  There would be no need for her to go all the way round that night because Russell was there and so no need to lock the patio doors.

All IMHO.

No.

It was Madeleine.

IMHO of course.

[Martina]

I think there's a chance it may have been JT's little girl who she heard crying on the 1st as  Russell stayed in that night with her because she was feeling poorly. That would explain the 'calling for her daddy'.

Eve O'Brien was one year old, too young to cry "Daddy!". And Russel was there, so if she started to cry, he would react immediately. There would be no reason for her prolonged crying.

[pegasus]

Well your 'opinion'  that the police wrote the wrong date down on Mrs Fenn's statement is  based on your  imagination,  isn it  ?   ...  I mean there is no actual  evidence  to support it

What you are doing is rejecting a witness statement  for no other reason than it does not  'fit'  with what the McCanns have claimed

To clarify, I am not rejecting the witness statement.
You may accuse me of switching the date from the 1st to the 2nd, that is true.
But of rejecting the statement, certainly not.
IMO the witness did hear 75 minutes crying below, no way am I dismissing it, and it's quite clear which apartment it came from JIMO.

[pegasus]

Simple if she was making these calls inside 5A starting at 10:15 they may have woken Madeleine up.

How does being woken by someone making a phone call cause 75 minutes crying? I don't see it.
And anyway PR's deduction that this phone activity was conducted at 5A, is nothing but circular reasoning.

[icabodcrane]

To clarify, I am not rejecting the witness statement.
You may accuse me of switching the date from the 1st to the 2nd, that is true.
But of rejecting the statement, certainly not.
IMO the witness did hear 75 minutes crying below, no way am I dismissing it, and it's quite clear which apartment it came from JIMO.

But you said you thought Kate McCann had told the truth

If her child was crying continuosly for 75 minutes on  any night  then she has not  the truth, has she  ? 

[pathfinder73]

How does being woken by someone making a phone call cause 75 minutes crying? I don't see it.
And anyway PR's deduction that this phone activity was conducted at 5A, is nothing but circular reasoning.

The quiz lady couldn't remember seeing Kate and DP at the table when she joined Gerry  >@@(*&)  And the cleaner noticed that one cot was in the parents bedroom on WED  >@@(*&)

[pegasus]

But you said you thought Kate McCann had told the truth
If her child was crying continuosly for 75 minutes on  any night  then she has not  the truth, has she  ?

I agree that if it was Tue then one of the neighbour / the mother must be describing what happened very incorrectly as their accounts would directly contradict each other.

However IMO if it was Wed (I am proposing PJ/translator writing down day error at interview not PF lying) then it is possible both those two accounts are essentially truthful.

[pegasus]

The quiz lady couldn't remember seeing Kate and DP at the table when she joined Gerry  >@@(*&)  And the cleaner noticed that one cot was in the parents bedroom on WED  >@@(*&)

But how in your theory can those events cause the 75 minutes which Mrs F heard?
And BTW what time did the group leave meal/quiz on Tue?

[pathfinder73]

But how in your theory can those events cause the 75 minutes which Mrs F heard?
And BTW what time did the group leave meal/quiz on Tue?

She was crying for her daddy. Was mummy there? This was around 9:30 when she joined them at the table. She couldn't remember seeing Kate and DP at the table.

[icabodcrane]

I agree that if it was Tue then one of the neighbour / the mother must be describing what happened very incorrectly as their accounts would directly contradict each other.

However IMO if it was Wed (I am proposing PJ/translator writing down day error at interview not PF lying) then it is possible both those two accounts are essentially truthful.

Pegasus,  there is simply no way you can reconcile Mrs Fenn saying a child was crying, becoming  increasingly distressed, for an hour and a quarter in the McCann's apartment,  with Kate's assertion that the longest interval between checks that week had been 45 minutes

You cannot claim there is no  'contradiction'  between those two statements 

Either Mrs Fenn  (   who had no motive to lie  )   must be challenged    ...  or Kate must

To pretend that you can, somehow,  'marry'  those two, conflicting, statements  is a nonsense

[pegasus]

...45 minutes ...

I agree there is a difference between those two accounts, 45 mins and 75 mins (IMO 45 may be underestimate).
BTW when this witness returned on Wed night (whether it was 11.30 or 11.45 or some other exact minute) there was no crying.

[icabodcrane]

I agree there is a difference between those two accounts, 45 mins and utes and 75 mins (IMO 45 may be underestimate.)
BTW when this witness returned on Wed night (whether it was 11.30 or 11.45 or some other exact minute) there was no crying.

The difference between 45 minutes and 75 minutes is not an  'underestimate'  pegasus  ...  it is an anomaly that cannot be breached

As is the anomaly between Mrs Fenn saying the crying stopped only after she heard the  patio doors opening  (  signifying the return of the child's parents  )   and Kate McCann saying there was never an incident that week when they returned to the apartment to find any of the children awake

You can't reconcile Mrs Fenns claims  with those of the McCanns   ...  you simply can't   (  whether you switch the nights around or not  ) 

[Silkywhiskers]

It's irrelevant hair splitting really.

Kate McCann herself told us about Madeleine and Sean's unattended crying.

Mrs Fenn is just another indication of the inconsistencies of the McCann fairytale.

[pegasus]

The difference between 45 minutes and 75 minutes is not an  'underestimate'  pegasus  ...  it is an anomaly that cannot be breached

As is the anomaly between Mrs Fenn saying the crying stopped only after she heard the  patio doors opening  (  signifying the return of the child's parents  )   and Kate McCann saying there was never an incident that week when they returned to the apartment to find any of the children awake

You can't reconcile Mrs Fenns claims  with those of the McCanns   ...  you simply can't   (  whether you switch the nights around or not  )

In the unlikely event anyone is interested in the Wed hypothesis:
The 75mins crying stopped when the first person entered and did not continue any longer.
She was second or fourth.

[pathfinder73]

In the unlikely event anyone is interested in the Wed hypothesis:
The 75mins crying stopped when the first person entered and did not continue any longer.
She was second or fourth.

Why didn't Rachel hear this crying for 75 minutes on the WED being next door?

1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''

 Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.

00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''
 
Reply 'No, nothing, no, erm it'.