Leonor Cipriano, her confession and subsequent silence in the killing of her daughter Joana.

[John]

Confessions after they had been tortured, John?

I know that you will say that they confessed first, but why are you so sure when Amaral is a twice convicted liar and Cristavao is allegedly charged with 7 gangster like offences.  They sound like two bad pennies to me ... and I am being kind.

He also allegedly personally beat Leandro up, putting him in hospital, in order to give a (false) witness statement, which Leandro has since rescinded.

As lead detective Amaral must have arranged for the DCCB (terrorist squad) to come from Lisbon to do the main torture, but are you so sure that:
1)   He didn't apply a bit of torture himself early on?  He did to Leandro it seems.
2)   He has told the truth about Leonor confessing on a date before the "official" torture dates?

The guy has proved that he cant be trusted, he lied to the Courts.     He is a criminal, yet you still trust him?  Jeez John, are you ever gullible ?

Only my opinion, but the pointers are there.    Plus several more, which I haven't mentioned this time

No Sadie, please stop posting false information.  Leonor only spoke at the preliminary hearing when she was fully committed to custody.  She told the magistrate that she had beaten Joana, that she had hit her head and died.  That brother João had panicked and disposed of her in some waste ground out back.

Leonor was beaten AFTER she was committed to prison.  A new lawyer took over and she never testified at her trial.

To answer your last points, Leonor was taken home every night prior to her committal.  If she was beaten then or threatened she never said to anyone or showed any signs of it.  Ultimately, its anyone's guess what went on in Lagos.

[Carana]

No Sadie, please stop posting false information.  Leonor only spoke at the preliminary hearing when she was fully committed to custody.  She told the magistrate that she had beaten Joana, that she had hit her head and died.  That brother João had panicked and disposed of her in some waste ground out back.

Leonor was beaten AFTER she was committed to prison.  A new lawyer took over and she never testified at her trial.

To answer your last points, Leonor was taken home every night prior to her committal.  If she was beaten then or threatened she never said to anyone or showed any signs of it.  Ultimately, its anyone's guess what went on in Lagos.

I agree that the evidence of physical beating (black eyes, etc.) concerned a later episode of questioning. However, there are many forms of coercion, John, as I'm sure you know and the circumstances of the initial questioning aren't clear to me.

How would anyone know if she'd been beaten or subjected to some form of psychological coercion before the "black eye" episode? Without proof, what evidence can a victim present? Particularly when most of the family must have been s..t scared as they were also arguidos. There were (IIRC) 9 arguidos in this case... no one had financial means to hire a top-notch lawyer.

[Carana]

As Anna pointed out, the Spanish authorities don't seem to have been alerted to a potential abduction... why not?

[Anna]

As Anna pointed out, the Spanish authorities don't seem to have been alerted to a potential abduction... why not?

It was a miscarriage of Justice if ever there was one. Who knows that she gave a confession? there is no record of it and I thought it was her brother, but she had to go where he went it seems.
 As for Joao taking the police on useless searches, What would you do to get a break from being beaten?. He was such a coward that he even blamed his brother of involvement. If he knew where the body was he would have told the PJ.
the pj admitted that Leonor faked illness to get away from interrogation for a while.....Why would she do that, if she wasn't being beaten, as she claimed back in September 2004.
She wasn't listened too until someone in a high position saw the injuries for herself.
As soon as she was arrested PJ cancelled Interpol and they never did alert the borders.....
 

[John]

It was a miscarriage of Justice if ever there was one. Who knows that she gave a confession? there is no record of it and I thought it was her brother, but she had to go where he went it seems.
 As for Joao taking the police on useless searches, What would you do to get a break from being beaten?. He was such a coward that he even blamed his brother of involvement. If he knew where the body was he would have told the PJ.
the pj admitted that Leonor faked illness to get away from interrogation for a while.....Why would she do that, if she wasn't being beaten, as she claimed back in September 2004.
She wasn't listened too until someone in a high position saw the injuries for herself.
As soon as she was arrested PJ cancelled Interpol and they never did alert the borders.....

Who knows that she gave a confession?    Well, everyone in court including the Press who reported it.   Maybe they made it all up just for the hell of it?

[Anna]

Who knows that she gave a confession?    Well, everyone in court including the Press who reported it.   Maybe they made it all up just for the hell of it?

Well there was plenty of stuff made up............................................For the hell of it?

[sadie]

No Sadie, please stop posting false information.  Leonor only spoke at the preliminary hearing when she was fully committed to custody.  She told the magistrate that she had beaten Joana, that she had hit her head and died.  That brother João had panicked and disposed of her in some waste ground out back.

Leonor was beaten AFTER she was committed to prison.  A new lawyer took over and she never testified at her trial.

To answer your last points, Leonor was taken home every night prior to her committal.  If she was beaten then or threatened she never said to anyone or showed any signs of it.  Ultimately, its anyone's guess what went on in Lagos.

There is no false information there John.  Read my post more carefully.

I am questioning if Amaral personally tortured Or maybe even threatened Leonor, [and joao?] which caused her so called "confession".?

His personal treatment of Leandro, only alleged admittedly, which  put him in hospital, illustrates what he is alledgedly capable of. 

He was head honcho when Kate was taken in for questioning.   Look at the deal he was trying to broker with her.  (From memory) " Kate to admit Madeleines death and 'you will only get 2 years' "


I am asking,
Did he try to broker a similar sort of deal with Leonor, or beat her into it ?  Did she originally go along with it, because he had threatened to take her children away or to put her in prison for, say, 20 years if she didn't "admit "... or he had beaten her ?


Leandro seemed to think that Leonor had been badly treated and in the early days too.  He has said so.



And John, Amaral has shown that he is a liar and con-man

1.  He tried to con Gerry at his arguido meeting.  Giving out false information to him, seemingly totally incriminating information.  From that moment on Gerry knew they were being fitted up.  It was obvious.

2.  All the talk about Leonor being an awful mother with an awful home.  That Joana was very unhappy.  Photographic evidence shows that was untrue, John and falsely put about

3.  The make believe scenario that Joana came home and found her mother and uncle Joao having sex together.  IIRC, even the Judge didn't believe that one.

4.  Then there is the cutting up  the body, the keeping in the fridge and feeding to the pigs  .... or the body being crushed in an old car at a crushing plant ... or carrying off of the body in pieces in a carrier bag. ... or the burying in the hills ..... or  .....................

5.  And of course he has been found guilty in two Courts of Perjury.  Lying.


Come on John. why are you twisting my meaning and making out things that are not correct?  Why are you spinning and saying that I am putting about false information when I clearly am not. 




Read my post carefully John ... and I would be grateful if you would amend your post.

As I would mine, if I were mistaken

[sadie]

John,

I truly think that your defense of eveything Amaral does would be better served if you gave up promoting him

Cos tbh, there is so much against him that all you are doing is prompting it all to be revealed over and over. 

Just my opinion of course

[Carana]

Who knows that she gave a confession?    Well, everyone in court including the Press who reported it.   Maybe they made it all up just for the hell of it?

Do you mean the initial hearing? If so, I haven't found anything to indicate that that would have been anything more than either repeating the statement made in police custody, or agreeing to it if it had been read out to her.

Doing so would certainly not exclude prior coercion, IMO, if the alternative potential charges sounded far worse.

[John]

Well there was plenty of stuff made up............................................For the hell of it?

Don't get me wrong Anna, I do agree but it adds up since that was the reason the magistrate remanded her in custody but bailed João.  She said she did it, whether this was a lie is not known since her story later changed.  She could have been covering for her brother, maybe she was more scared of him.  Remember she later wrote to him pleading forgiveness.
   -

[John]

There is no false information there John.  Read my post more carefully.

I am questioning if Amaral personally tortured Or maybe even threatened Leonor, [and joao?] which caused her so called "confession".?

His personal treatment of Leandro, only alleged admittedly, which  put him in hospital, illustrates what he is alledgedly capable of. 

He was head honcho when Kate was taken in for questioning.   Look at the deal he was trying to broker with her.  (From memory) " Kate to admit Madeleines death and 'you will only get 2 years' "


I am asking,
Did he try to broker a similar sort of deal with Leonor, or beat her into it ?  Did she originally go along with it, because he had threatened to take her children away or to put her in prison for, say, 20 years if she didn't "admit "... or he had beaten her ?


Leandro seemed to think that Leonor had been badly treated and in the early days too.  He has said so.



And John, Amaral has shown that he is a liar and con-man

1.  He tried to con Gerry at his arguido meeting.  Giving out false information to him, seemingly totally incriminating information.  From that moment on Gerry knew they were being fitted up.  It was obvious.

2.  All the talk about Leonor being an awful mother with an awful home.  That Joana was very unhappy.  Photographic evidence shows that was untrue, John and falsely put about

3.  The make believe scenario that Joana came home and found her mother and uncle Joao having sex together.  IIRC, even the Judge didn't believe that one.

4.  Then there is the cutting up  the body, the keeping in the fridge and feeding to the pigs  .... or the body being crushed in an old car at a crushing plant ... or carrying off of the body in pieces in a carrier bag. ... or the burying in the hills ..... or  .....................

5.  And of course he has been found guilty in two Courts of Perjury.  Lying.


Come on John. why are you twisting my meaning and making out things that are not correct?  Why are you spinning and saying that I am putting about false information when I clearly am not. 




Read my post carefully John ... and I would be grateful if you would amend your post.

As I would mine, if I were mistaken

Ok, you inferred in your question that Leonor was tortured before her initial confession.   Always remember that she confessed a second time just before the PJ trials.  This time she confessed that it was all João's doing, an abduction with a view to selling Joana but that it all went horribly wrong.

Sadie, your hate of Dr Amaral is clouding your judgement.  There is no evidence to suggest he ever touched Leonor or even threatened her.  He was not convicted of any torture by any court so please keep this in mind.

As for threatening Kate, Dr Amaral was never in the same room as the McCanns never mind threaten them.  In any event, he couldn't speak English and they couldn't speak Portuguese.

Please keep a sense of proportion about your posts.

[John]

John,

I truly think that your defense of eveything Amaral does would be better served if you gave up promoting him

Cos tbh, there is so much against him that all you are doing is prompting it all to be revealed over and over. 

Just my opinion of course

I have no intention of defending him Sadie but I won't permit falsehoods to be posted on this forum.  He was convicted of falsifying police official documents and his brother won a civil case against him.  Have I missed anything?

Off out...will reply later.

[Anna]

Don't get me wrong Anna, I do agree but it adds up since that was the reason the magistrate remanded her in custody but bailed João.  She said she did it, whether this was a lie is not known since her story later changed.  She could have been covering for her brother, maybe she was more scared of him.  Remember she later wrote to him pleading forgiveness.
   -

Of course it added up. PJ had it all worked out.
To the Judge.....Joao confessed to hiding the body any other charge to her. There is nothing regarding Leonor except that the brother left  any other charge to her.....What does that mean?
They needed to follow Joao, or they were stirring it the same way they did with Leandro, Joao and Leonor
Leonor was originally held "for her own safety" as told to relatives and is what they said to the press.
The letter of forgiveness request was to Leonor from Joao and only hearsay from... Leandro.
Leonors lawyer, Pacheco apologises in press below for the lies, in the press.



28 sep 2004 CM

The uncle of small Joana saw yesterday aggravated the extent of coercion. Joao Cyprian, who came out Sunday the Court of Portimao with the requirement of periodic presentation the authorities, this since yesterday in the late afternoon in preventive detention. However, the continuing search to find the body of the child. After passing the comb-thin the sewer system, it is the time to inspect the trash
The Court of Portimao decided yesterday apply the regime of preventive detention to uncle of joana, after, in the early hours of last Saturday, the tue placed in freedom. The judge of criminal investigations that examined the process understood now there is new and stronger evidence of the participation of Joao Cipriano in the killing of niece and not just in hiding the body.
The individual was questioned for about an hour and, according to some sources, will have had a speech somewhat inconsistent, but sufficient to judge Ana Soares, based on new evidence gathered by PJ, considers it as presumed co-author (with sister, Leonor Cipriano) of aggression that resulted in the death of joananna.
It is recalled that, in the previous interrogation in Court, the individual only confessed participation in hiding the body, leaving the responsibility of the death of joana for sister, Leonor Cipriano.
The return of Joao Cipriano to Court of Portimao is still connected to the fact that this, during the rebuilding of the crime made by PJ on Saturday afternoon, having admitted to participation in beating of girl, on 12, in the village of Figueira.
The individual tried to still involve a brother his, Nelson, as being responsible for the transportation of the body.
Over the past few days, the uncle of Joana has sought to give the idea of being willing to collaborate with the PJ, particularly indicating and moving even to places where allegedly would be hidden the corpse.
The truth, however, is that all the clues provided by individual proved false, which makes us understand that Joao Cipriano opted for diversionary maneuvers to prevent the discovery of the corpse.
As a result of yesterday's decision of the Court, the two held by PJ as allegedly involved in the killing of Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, eight years - precisely the mother and uncle - are awaiting trial in prison.
The mother of joana, Leonor Cipriano, is already since Saturday in Prison of Odemira, while the uncle of the girl, Joao Cyprian, you must collect the prison of Olhao. The two suspects for the death of the child will need special attention on the part of Prison Services, given that the prisoners accept evil crime of which they are accused.
'LEAKS OF INFORMATION'
"I can Only say that I am sorry that they have been published in news Media that are not true," said to CM Joao Novais Pacheco, the defender officiously of Leonor Cipriano, accused of the murder, on 12, her own daughter, in the village of Figueira, county of Portimao.
The lawyer of the mother of Joana said "in professional secrecy and Justice" for not doing great reviews about the case, but it was eventually add that also lamented "the leaks of information" which, according to him, if you have been to check. The a practicing barrister refused if, on the other hand, to reveal that measures will be taken in defence of Leonor Cipriano, particularly if you want to make use of the measure enacted in the early hours of Saturday by judge of criminal investigations Ana Soares, the Court of Portimao, which decreed the preventive detention of mother of joana.
PJ INVESTIGATES CAR
The Judicial Police (PJ) of Faro proceeds the forensics examination to the car of Nelson Cyprian, fingered by his brother (John) as being responsible for the transportation and concealment of the corpse of the smallest after having been committed the murder. The car was seized after Joao Cipriano have declared the PJ that outside the brother Nelson who transported the body. The car is to be the target of investigations by the Police with a view to gathering Scientific evidence to conclude on the possible presence, in its interior, the corpse of Gianna. The CM has found that the owner of the vehicle was yesterday heard by PJ of Faro but went in liber-bility.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/tio-fica-em-prisao-preventiva

[Eleanor]

Don't get me wrong Anna, I do agree but it adds up since that was the reason the magistrate remanded her in custody but bailed João.  She said she did it, whether this was a lie is not known since her story later changed.  She could have been covering for her brother, maybe she was more scared of him.  Remember she later wrote to him pleading forgiveness.
   -

I thought Jaoa wrote to Leonor pleading for forgiveness.  Which is it?

[Eleanor]

Has anyone seen a written copy of Leonor's confession?

They both said that they had done it.
They both said that the other one had done it.
They both apologised for saying that the other one had done it.
They both gave different accounts of how they had done.
Neither of then knew exactly how the body had been disposed of.
Neither of then knew where the body was.

Did anyone know what had gone on?  Or did they all agree that The PJ were right, depending on what seemed the most feasible?