Who was the Irish teenager who saw Gerry and Jez talking?

[Brietta]

What keeps bugging me, is the fact that the early reports talked about this girl coming out of her apartment, through the gate into the alleyway.

From her fag smoking position in the alleyway, she could see Gerry and Jez chatting at the end of the alleyway.  This inplied that she was staying in the western end of block 5 ... or maybe in the block immediately west of Block 5, and I seem to remember that is Block 4.

I am sorry, I am not well atm and cannot research this.  In any case if the true facts are being hidden, this statement / report could have been wiped ... as we have seen happen before



Until this thread, I have never heard mention of this girl being in Block 6.  Is it "make believe"?

"The teenager went out for a cigarette"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3550.msg134591#msg134591

No mention at all of a balcony.

Have we, in all innocence, just contributed to the birth of another forum myth by combining the failure to collect the discarded cigarette butts from the balcony and the vantage point for the teenager?

[misty]

"The teenager went out for a cigarette"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3550.msg134591#msg134591

No mention at all of a balcony.

Have we, in all innocence, just contributed to the birth of another forum myth by combining the failure to collect the discarded cigarette butts from the balcony and the vantage point for the teenager?

If the phantom cigarette smoker was in the alley way she wouldn't have been able to see the junction at the top of the road where Tannerman crossed.

[sadie]

"The teenager went out for a cigarette"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3550.msg134591#msg134591

No mention at all of a balcony.

Have we, in all innocence, just contributed to the birth of another forum myth by combining the failure to collect the discarded cigarette butts from the balcony and the vantage point for the teenager?

I think we have.

I think that we may have been cleverly conned into it.


Think about it

1)  If the girl was in the block G5 alleyway then if she could see Gerry and Jez, they had to be talking at the end of that alleyway, as Jane and Jez have stated.  This goes against the grain for doubters for some reason

2)  If she was in that alleyway, then as Misty points out, the Jane Tanners sighting of Tannerman was completely out of her view, behind the buildings.  The doubters are very keen that Jane Tanner should be proved a liar.

I wonder why?   Are they trying to make out that she didn't see a man?
If they are, then as far as I am concerned that is  good reason to back up Janes sighting.  They protesteth too much.


3)  If she was in that alleyway, then she would only have chance to sight Jane Tanner for the 2 or 3 seconds it took for Jane to walk the nine feet across the alleyway.

Easy to miss!

ETA:
4)  Additionally the doubters are trying to make out that the fag ends were the girls.     

A quick sly fag and she leaves a pile of fag ends!   Come on, we are not daft, you know.

[Eleanor]

I have always suspected that Gerry and Jez were standing in the entrance to the alleyway.  It would make more sense because there is more room for two men and a pushchair.  More easy for Jane to pass unnoticed.  Also less likely for Gerry or Jez to see anyone pass across the top of the road.

[G-Unit]

I think we have.

I think that we may have been cleverly conned into it.


Think about it

1)  If the girl was in the block G5 alleyway then if she could see Gerry and Jez, they had to be talking at the end of that alleyway, as Jane and Jez have stated.  This goes against the grain for doubters for some reason  Does it?

2)  If she was in that alleyway, then as Misty points out, the Jane Tanners sighting of Tannerman was completely out of her view, behind the buildings.  The doubters are very keen that Jane Tanner should be proved a liar.
Are they?

I wonder why?   Are they trying to make out that she didn't see a man?
If they are, then as far as I am concerned that is  good reason to back up Janes sighting.  They protesteth too much. Logical! Believe something because you think other people don't.


3)  If she was in that alleyway, then she would only have chance to sight Jane Tanner for the 2 or 3 seconds it took for Jane to walk the nine feet across the alleyway.

Easy to miss!

ETA:
4)  Additionally the doubters are trying to make out that the fag ends were the girls.     Are they? There is no evidence she even exists.

A quick sly fag and she leaves a pile of fag ends!   Come on, we are not daft, you know. No, just talking about a girl who wasn't on the guest list and is not in the files and who keeps popping up all over the place smoking and watching people.

My comments in blue. I have been called a doubter and I believe Jane Tanner, so you have made some rather sweeping statements in my opinion.

[sadie]

My comments in blue. I have been called a doubter and I believe Jane Tanner, so you have made some rather sweeping statements in my opinion.

Please dont take anything I have said personally Gunit.  I am talking generally when I mention doubters.   I dont even know you my dear.


The fact still remains that as far as I can remember, there was never any mention of block 6 with regards to this girl.... and we have thirteen pages going on about what her (?)ficticious viewpoint meant to the case.  That is the stuff myths are made from.

From descriptions given at the time, I feel sure that she was in block 5 or block 4.


I cannot answer why she was not on record as being there.  Maybe they were friends of the owners?  Dunno.

[G-Unit]

Please dont take anything I have said personally Gunit.  I am talking generally when I mention doubters.   I dont even know you my dear.


The fact still remains that as far as I can remember, there was never any mention of block 6 with regards to this girl.... and we have thirteen pages going on about what her (?)ficticious viewpoint meant to the case.  That is the stuff myths are made from.

From descriptions given at the time, I feel sure that she was in block 5 or block 4.


I cannot answer why she was not on record as being there.  Maybe they were friends of the owners?  Dunno.

No offense taken Sadie. It's just that some people seem to think that anyone who has doubts is part of some evil gang and that gets annoying. I can't find any statement from this girl so it's all conjecture if she even exists. I think part of the discussion included Graham McKenzie and his 'pile of butts' which some took to perhaps belong to her, but others (including me) were exploring what the view was if someone was watching from the place where the butts were. The Ocean club was a nightmare of privately owned and holiday accommodation. People were moved (McKenzie allegedly) and others were there but no-one knew. In the event of fire or other disaster I get the impression that no-one really knew who was in each block, so a checklist and headcount would have been hard to produce. It's the same with the creche records - sloppy record keeping, and the Tapas bookings don't always make sense.

[faithlilly]

I have always suspected that Gerry and Jez were standing in the entrance to the alleyway.  It would make more sense because there is more room for two men and a pushchair.  More easy for Jane to pass unnoticed.  Also less likely for Gerry or Jez to see anyone pass across the top of the road.

It would indeed explain the discrepancies however it is not supported by the witness statements.

[jassi]

It would indeed explain the discrepancies however it is not supported by the witness statements.

Pah, witnesses - what do they know?  Armchair detectives know far better.

[Brietta]

No offense taken Sadie. It's just that some people seem to think that anyone who has doubts is part of some evil gang and that gets annoying. I can't find any statement from this girl so it's all conjecture if she even exists. I think part of the discussion included Graham McKenzie and his 'pile of butts' which some took to perhaps belong to her, but others (including me) were exploring what the view was if someone was watching from the place where the butts were. The Ocean club was a nightmare of privately owned and holiday accommodation. People were moved (McKenzie allegedly) and others were there but no-one knew. In the event of fire or other disaster I get the impression that no-one really knew who was in each block, so a checklist and headcount would have been hard to produce. It's the same with the creche records - sloppy record keeping, and the Tapas bookings don't always make sense.

I really don't think it would have been too much of a problem for the investigating authorities at the time, and who is to say there is not a complete record in existence which is not in the public domain.

Some of the officers did an excellent job of information gathering ... but if the directive was elsewhere, elementary procedures may have been ignored.

[G-Unit]

I really don't think it would have been too much of a problem for the investigating authorities at the time, and who is to say there is not a complete record in existence which is not in the public domain.

Some of the officers did an excellent job of information gathering ... but if the directive was elsewhere, elementary procedures may have been ignored.

On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches. The collaboration of all the guests occupying the apartments at that time was requested for this purpose and those apartments that were found to be empty were opened by the administrator.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Your opinion may be wrong.

[ShiningInLuz]

The Irish teenager who went back with her dad to do a reconstruction was Aoife.  We know where Aoife was staying originally, in her dad's flat in Estrela da Luz.  That's where the Smith 9 headed when they left Kelly's on 3 May 2007.

Estrela da Luz is not part of the Ocean Club (at least Anorak got that right).  It is several hundred metres from block 5 (or 4 or 6).  Not the distance one sneaks, is it?

Besides, we know exactly where Aoife was at the time Jerry and Jes had their chat.  She was in the Dolphin, many hundreds of metres away, having dinner with the rest of the Smith 9.

Anorak invented the myth of the Irish teenager involved in the reconstruction who saw the Smith sighting whilst smoking.  That part is cobblers, pure and utter cobblers.

The second part is McKenzie saying there was a pile of butts on a public balcony in block 6.  Whether said pile of butts existed or not, the end of block 6 happens to be one of the better points from which the comings and goings of the T9 in general, and the McCanns use of the patio doors in particular, could be monitored.

[G-Unit]

The Irish teenager who went back with her dad to do a reconstruction was Aoife.  We know where Aoife was staying originally, in her dad's flat in Estrela da Luz.  That's where the Smith 9 headed when they left Kelly's on 3 May 2007.

Estrela da Luz is not part of the Ocean Club (at least Anorak got that right).  It is several hundred metres from block 5 (or 4 or 6).  Not the distance one sneaks, is it?

Besides, we know exactly where Aoife was at the time Jerry and Jes had their chat.  She was in the Dolphin, many hundreds of metres away, having dinner with the rest of the Smith 9.

Anorak invented the myth of the Irish teenager involved in the reconstruction who saw the Smith sighting whilst smoking.  That part is cobblers, pure and utter cobblers.

The second part is McKenzie saying there was a pile of butts on a public balcony in block 6.  Whether said pile of butts existed or not, the end of block 6 happens to be one of the better points from which the comings and goings of the T9 in general, and the McCanns use of the patio doors in particular, could be monitored.

Good overview.

[Carana]

The Irish teenager who went back with her dad to do a reconstruction was Aoife.  We know where Aoife was staying originally, in her dad's flat in Estrela da Luz.  That's where the Smith 9 headed when they left Kelly's on 3 May 2007.

Estrela da Luz is not part of the Ocean Club (at least Anorak got that right).  It is several hundred metres from block 5 (or 4 or 6).  Not the distance one sneaks, is it?

Besides, we know exactly where Aoife was at the time Jerry and Jes had their chat.  She was in the Dolphin, many hundreds of metres away, having dinner with the rest of the Smith 9.

Anorak invented the myth of the Irish teenager involved in the reconstruction who saw the Smith sighting whilst smoking.  That part is cobblers, pure and utter cobblers.

The second part is McKenzie saying there was a pile of butts on a public balcony in block 6.  Whether said pile of butts existed or not, the end of block 6 happens to be one of the better points from which the comings and goings of the T9 in general, and the McCanns use of the patio doors in particular, could be monitored.

If you look back, Anorak did not invent it. It was originally posted on a blog, SOS Madeleine, which was Levy's blog hosted on the Belgian rag La Dernière Heure and the translation appeared on Paulo Reis's blog, which then got picked up by Anorak.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3550.0

[Eleanor]

If you look back, Anorak did not invent it. It was originally posted on a blog, SOS Madeleine, which was Levy's blog hosted on the Belgian rag La Dernière Heure and the translation appeared on Paulo Reis's blog, which then got picked up by Anorak.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3550.0

And no one believes a word said by Levy.  Not even Morais.  Although they both appear to have thought that there was something in it for them.