DCI Redwood now admits Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

[Carana]

UMMM... did everybody miss this?

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment " on"may not follow with all our thinking the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

So he actually said that she may not have been abducted and that she may not have been alive when she left the apartment!

Jesus! That is big news!

What's the big news?

3.
Law. the illegal carrying or enticing away of a person, especially by interfering with a relationship, as the taking of a child from its parent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abduction


She may or may not have been alive when she was taken out of the apartment.

[jassi]

I'm honestly genuinely surprised that neither 'side' see Andy Redwood saying that Madeleine being abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case, is a big deal.

I interpret that as indicating that not all of the team are singing from the same hymn sheet and that there is dissent in the camp.

[Cariad]

I interpret that as indicating that not all of the team are singing from the same hymn sheet and that there is dissent in the camp.

To me it seems like a much bigger line than the "she may not have been alive when she left the apartment" one.

If she wasn't abducted, what have you left?

She woke and wandered and befall some unknown fate.

Or, She died in the apartment. At which point you need to start asking why someone would remove a corpse?

Is there any history of a stranger breaking in, murdering someone and then removing the body?

[Carana]

I'm honestly genuinely surprised that neither 'side' see Andy Redwood saying that Madeleine being abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case, is a big deal.

I read the clarification again. I still understand it to mean that she may or may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. If this child-bed-obsessed pervert was involved in this case and had escalated his level of offending, then she might not have left the apartment alive.

For the moment, it's not clear whether this guy (whoever it was) was involved or not, nor even whether there was only one guy involved in similar activities from 2004-2010. It's not clear either whether this type of pervert would necessarily have killed her or simply wanted her for himself.

[jassi]

I read the clarification again. I still understand it to mean that she may or may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. If this child-bed-obsessed pervert was involved in this case and had escalated his level of offending, then she might not have left the apartment alive.

For the moment, it's not clear whether this guy (whoever it was) was involved or not, nor even whether there was only one guy involved in similar activities from 2004-2010. It's not clear either whether this type of pervert would necessarily have killed her or simply wanted her for himself.

This sort of person usually does both.
Not that there is any evidence, of course, to suggest that Madeleine was removed by this, or any similarly-motivated person.

[Cariad]

I read the clarification again. I still understand it to mean that she may or may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. If this child-bed-obsessed pervert was involved in this case and had escalated his level of offending, then she might not have left the apartment alive.

For the moment, it's not clear whether this guy (whoever it was) was involved or not, nor even whether there was only one guy involved in similar activities from 2004-2010. It's not clear either whether this type of pervert would necessarily have killed her or simply wanted her for himself.

I just read it again too:

• This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

I still think that the 'not abducted' was separate to not alive when she left the apartment'.

I wonder if the Guardian would clarify their clarification? 

[jassi]

I just read it again too:

• This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

I still think that the 'not abducted' was separate to not alive when she left the apartment'.

I wonder if the Guardian would clarify their clarification? 

I think SH has suggested that technically, you can't abduct a corpse, so perhaps that's the reason for separation.

[Cariad]

I think SH has suggested that technically, you can't abduct a corpse, so perhaps that's the reason for separation.

Sherlock, are you really saying that? I did read the post, but I noticed that you posed it more as a question. You asked if it was splitting hairs.

Yes, yes it was.

[Wonderfulspam]

I just read it again too:

• This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

I still think that the 'not abducted' was separate to not alive when she left the apartment'.

I wonder if the Guardian would clarify their clarification? 

I wonder why, if Redwood is being totally straight with us, he should have such difficulty saying anything approaching a coherent sentence.

[jassi]

I wonder why, if Redwood is being totally straight with us, he should have such difficulty saying anything approaching a coherent sentence.

Some people are just 'naturals' when put in front of a camera - he obviously isn't. No high-ranking future for him, I suspect.

[Silkywhiskers]

For the McCann supporters -

IF Madeleine died in 5a (that's now two separate investigations which have said the same thing) then WHEN was she murdered?

Cadaverine takes a while to develop.  The decomposition process must start.  We're not talking hours here but more than minutes too.

Madeleine was allegedly sleeping soundly when Gerry had his trip to the WC so she was alive then.

Gerry also says the perp may have been in the apartment at that time.

He must've had a bath.  No one smelt him, saw him, or heard him DESPITE the constant milling around that night.

The bed linen was entirely undisturbed.  I would expect to see at least a butt mark where he'd sat on the bed, no doubt contemplating the beautiful child.

Why didn't Kate smell him either?  His BO would have wafted to her on the "whoosh" of wind.

Also, SY have TOLD US in no uncertain terms that Smithman is The One, yet Smithman was clean cut, neatly dressed, presumably not odorous either.

Smithman is not dark skinned, long haired, or unkempt, so clearly is neither Euclides nor Smellyman.

Smellyman is accused of bed sitting for 12 children, but only "assaulting" two - who remained alive to talk about it.

Bit of a change from that, to murdering a baby and abducting her corpse, wouldn't you say?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sherlock, are you really saying that? I did read the post, but I noticed that you posed it more as a question. You asked if it was splitting hairs.

Yes, yes it was.

I posed it as a question as I really don't know, Cariad. I would have thought that technically speaking, abduction is the removal of a living person. Often for ransom, though not necessarily. When you say I'm splitting hairs, that's probably correct!

In the middle of writing this I have looked the word up in several dictionaries (and also the word 'kidnapping', which appears to mean essentially the same thing), and the main meaning is that a person is taken against their will.

I had a feeling that that was part of the meaning, and that's what was niggling me:  a person who is dead is not  being taken against their will.

Whether this technicality is of any interest to police as far as their investigations and communications go - our original context for this question - I don't know. What do you think DCI Redwood meant?

[Silkywhiskers]

I'm not a pro McCann supporter - I'm just keeping an open mind
2
Who says Madeleine was murdered?   The possibility that she might not have been alive when she disappeared does not make it a fact.
3
If it had been a case of death occurring and the body removed fairly quickly no time for cadaver odour to gather in the apartment.
4
A suspect has been mentioned of dubious personal hygiene but that doesn't mean he was the actual perp.
5
Euclides Monteiro has also been mentioned in connection with the disappearance but again once again not as the actual perp.
6.
A scent of cadaver odour does not a murder case make nor mean that there had to be a corpse in situ at some point.

wow....do you know anything about this case?

Sir BHH used the word "murder". 

Three separate police investigations also found that Madeleine "may not have left 5a alive" which confirms Eddie's work.

STILL not good enough for you?

[icabodcrane]

I'm not a pro McCann supporter - I'm just keeping an open mind
2
Who says Madeleine was murdered?   The possibility that she might not have been alive when she disappeared does not make it a fact.
3
If it had been a case of death occurring and the body removed fairly quickly no time for cadaver odour to gather in the apartment.
4
A suspect has been mentioned of dubious personal hygiene but that doesn't mean he was the actual perp.
5
Euclides Monteiro has also been mentioned in connection with the disappearance but again once again not as the actual perp.
6.
A scent of cadaver odour does not a murder case make nor mean that there had to be a corpse in situ at some point.

That's what sticks in my craw though  ...  and I  really do  keep an open mind

Here we are being asked to accept that Madeleine's dead body,  might,   indeed,  have been in that  apartment  ...  but we  are  STILL being asked to believe the  cadaver dog was not alerting to it  !

Why  ? 

Why,  if the possibility of Madeleine having died in apartment 5A  has been accepted by all  (  including   Scotland Yard  )  is it denied that the cadaver dog detected the scent of that dead body ?

[Silkywhiskers]

That's what sticks in my craw though  ...  and I  really do  keep an open mind

Here we are being asked to accept that Madeleine's dead body,  might,   indeed,  have been in that  apartment  ...  but we  are  STILL being asked to believe the  cadaver dog was not alerting to it  !

Why  ? 

Why,  if the possibility of Madeleine having died in apartment 5A  has been accepted by all  (  including   Scotland Yard  )  is it denied that the cadaver dog detected the scent of that dead body ?

Because Gerry says so.