Where was Gerry immediately after Kate found Madeleine gone at 10pm?

[icabodcrane]

Did you actually read the article as you seem to have missed the whole point.   Gerry's recall of that time could be completely wrong.    Just as those witnesses who were so sure Menezes vaulted a barrier were completely wrong.   And in the same way as one or more of the witnesses who recalled where Jez and Gerry stood in the road, are wrong.

IMO its a wasted exercise to try to accurately pin events down to the last minute by using the times quoted by witnesses - as they are all from memory - and are also memories of a stressful situation -  which makes them even more likely to be flawed. 

IMO you are using what is very likely to be  inaccurate 'evidence' to suggest something 'sinister'.... or as you say...  ''one of life's greatest mysteries'' - but which professional policemen would not find 'mysterious' at all because they fully understand the fallibility of memory.

 

I don't understand why you are doubting Gerry McCann's assertion about  what time he and Kate made their checks on the children 

The McCanns themselves have no doubt about their  accuracy

From Kate's book ;  ( page 70  )

"After ordering his food, Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch."


I have highlighted that comment because it confirms Gerry was checking his watch  and was able to be accurate right down to the  "just before"   detail

This,  also from page 70 of Kate's book ; 

"Obviously,  we didn't want any of our children waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes,  and even if the chances of that happening seemed remote,  it was enough of a concern to make us absolutely prompt with our checks on the kids.  That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings"

Given these quotes I really don't see how you can suggest that Gerry may have been completely wrong about the timing he gave to the police

[Benice]

What planet are you living on? You would only give an exact time if you know what time it was. If you are not sure of the time you would say I don't know for certain but maybe around 10 or 9.55 not give an exact time down to the exact minute unless you have checked your watch. My theory connects with all the evidence and facts. We will see how wrong I am.

So you didn't read the article then.    Fair enough.

[valeria]

Are you kidding me? Gerry said an exact time of 10.03  8-)(--) did he guess that exact time  Shush Smithman sighting? 

Russell O'Brien's Rogatory interview quote
"Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by clock."

Maria Manuela Martins da Silva statement quote

" Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58—she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her freind’s apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment;
She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn’t yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill;
. States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment;
. Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions""

...hence it is very likely that the alarm was after ten

[pathfinder73]

Russell O'Brien's Rogatory interview quote
"Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by clock."

Maria Manuela Martins da Silva statement quote

" Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58—she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her freind’s apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment;
She declares further that she mentioned this fact to her boyfriend and that it wasn’t yet summer given the movement on the roads, and at that hour movement was nill;
. States that she looked at the exit of the apartment and that from the flat above the McCanns, she saw light, and also in from of the apartment, but she could not define, concretely, where she saw the light when she passed the McCann apartment;
. Next to the tree, she did not detect any movement of people or vehicles, and nothing struck her as abnormal in that zone that would have raised her suspicions""

...hence it is very likely that the alarm was after ten

Tapas staff said before 10 and so did Fiona, Matt, Russ. At 21:58 Kate would've been the only one in the apartment and Dianne was still at the table. Many of the others were either searching the tapas area or around the pathway/car parks so this witness would not have necessarily seen anybody from where she was situated i.e. block 6. blocks 5 and 4 were being searched (pathway between both, gardens and car parks) according to their statements and the tapas pool/play area. I put the alarm being raised at 9.55. 3 minutes before that witness time. I suppose 10pm could be the latest and still be spotted 3 minutes later.

[valeria]

Anyway, I still think very likely that if the alarm was already raised  the witness would notice some movement in the area

[Benice]

I don't understand why you are doubting Gerry McCann's assertion about  what time he and Kate made their checks on the children 

The McCanns themselves have no doubt about their  accuracy

From Kate's book ;  ( page 70  )

"After ordering his food, Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch."


I have highlighted that comment because it confirms Gerry was checking his watch  and was able to be accurate right down to the  "just before"   detail

This,  also from page 70 of Kate's book ; 

"Obviously,  we didn't want any of our children waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes,  and even if the chances of that happening seemed remote,  it was enough of a concern to make us absolutely prompt with our checks on the kids.  That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings"

Given these quotes I really don't see how you can suggest that Gerry may have been completely wrong about the timing he gave to the police

According to the quote provided by Pathfinder GM  wasn't wearing a watch?

Quote
''Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03...''..
Unquote.

However, assuming he was wearing one  - do you accept  then that the time given by Gerry as 10.03 was accurate and proves that he was sitting at the Tapas restaurant and so could not have been the person the Smith's saw?

With regard to times, the only time I know of that is definitely known to be accurate is the 10.40 time recorded as the time the first phone call was made to the police.   

I'm firmly with the experts on the subject of 'memory' and have said many times that although I believe the McCanns always told the truth that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate.

[pathfinder73]

According to the quote provided by Pathfinder GM  wasn't wearing a watch?

Quote
''Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03...''..
Unquote.

However, assuming he was wearing one  - do you accept  then that the time given by Gerry as 10.03 was accurate and proves that he was sitting at the Tapas restaurant and so could not have been the person the Smith's saw?

With regard to times, the only time I know of that is definitely known to be accurate is the 10.40 time recorded as the time the first phone call was made to the police.   

I'm firmly with the experts on the subject of 'memory' and have said many times that although I believe the McCanns always told the truth that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate.

You certainly aren't a very good detective are you? Sorry but if you ask a dumb question.....If he was wearing his watch at 9 do you think he wasn't wearing it at 10?  Now you know why I started that previous thread where was Gerry between 10 to 10.10 i.e. 10 minutes!

"About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness."

Another big discrepancy to other testimonies at the table.


[with no way to tell the time]

I think I remember a poster corrected that meaning to "nothing to report" not no way to tell the time.

[John]

It certainly is one of life's greatest mysteries 

Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.

So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm  8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement  and go something isn't quite right here

According to one of the waiters she shouted from the apartment before running to the tapas restaurant.  This was why Amaral questioned why a mother finding a child missing and the window and shutter wide open on a cold night would abandon the other two in such circumstances?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492617/Kate-McCann-screamed-BALCONY-theyve-taken-claims-new-witness.html

[sadie]

Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.

So Kate was gone for 10 minutes now and came running back at around 10.15pm  8-)(--) Can any detective read this without scratching one's head in amazement  and go something isn't quite right here

Exactly which statement is this from Pathfinder?  Are you sure you have the times right? 

Please can you clarify.

[pegasus]

Exactly which statement is this from Pathfinder?  Are you sure you have the times right? 
Please can you clarify.

pathfinder was quoting GM statement 10th may 2007

[pathfinder73]

Exactly which statement is this from Pathfinder?  Are you sure you have the times right? 

Please can you clarify.

pathfinder was quoting GM statement 10th may 2007

Sadie, Pegasus is correct. Link here:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

[Alfred R Jones]

Maybe not lost, maybe they just never made them to the files released to the public - remind me who released them? 

In any case we know Gerry must have had cast iron alibis for that evening because the PJ never asked him where he was when the alarm was raised when he was questioned as an arguido.  Unless we're suggesting that the PJ simply forgot to ask this rather critical question...? 

[pathfinder73]

Maybe not lost, maybe they just never made them to the files released to the public - remind me who released them? 

In any case we know Gerry must have had cast iron alibis for that evening because the PJ never asked him where he was when the alarm was raised when he was questioned as an arguido.  Unless we're suggesting that the PJ simply forgot to ask this rather critical question...?

"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.

 While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom." (GM 7 Sep)

Nobody saw Gerry at the main reception  >@@(*&)  Matt went there at 10.10 to call the police and Fiona sent him. And he wasn't in 5A when Dianne first went there but I've been though all that on another thread.

[pegasus]

"...went to the main Reception..."(GM 7 Sep)

This is not referring to 10.10 it is referring to later (when several witnesses including GNR confirm at main reception)

[Cariad]

We dont know that.  We only have Chinese whispers from her husband ... in other words a third party statement.

Very strangely Carolines statement is missing !!!!!

As are also the statements from Raj and Neil, the two men who could verify the time they saw Gerry searching
So all three of Gerrys potential alibis have somehow got lost !



Sounds very fishy to me.  In fact it stinks.

Who took Raj and Neil's statements, Sadie ?