The dogs.....

[Wonderfulspam]

I'm interested in finding out the truth not spreading misinformation. Eddie was the best of the best not an amateur alerting to the lies you've been spreading. Everyone with an open mind who reads this thread knows who is telling the truth and who is lying.

Why didn't Eddie alert to pork in the bin in PDL?

Or the apartments toilet?

[ferryman]

Goodness gracious me ... what a mine of disinformation and ignorance you reveal ...

Eddie was trained using aborted pig foetuses; therefore he would have alerted to pork and he did alert to semen in Jersey.

I think you should bear in mind that in Europe it is illegal to replicate the american body farm so dogs trained in Europe are not trained using cadavers.

You may be capable of reading, but you are not capable of interpreting what you read; Mr Grime enumerated biological waste to which the CSI dog would not react to as a trained response, but since these items emit the compounds of decomposition - that is exactly within the parameters of the VRD trained response.

I thought you would comprehend that which is why I used Martin Grime as a particular source as he is an acknowledged expert in the field.  Apparently not ... so try this one for size ...

 - snipped -

Take, for example, a dog trained to detect human remains (oft referred to as
a “cadaver dog,” an imprecise term). It can be trained to detect either putrescine or
cadaverine, two aptly monikered molecules which are specific to decaying carbon
based life forms. But while a deceased and thus decaying human gives off such
molecules, so too does decaying vegetation. On the other hand, handlers have been
known to train human remains dogs with human remains. In that case, however,
one cannot tell whether the dog has reacted to a specific molecule or to a
combination of molecules. That is of import, because parts of the body decay at
different rates; and the cocktail of molecules released by the cadaver may differ from
one day to another. So too, the body may decompose a different rates depending
on the environmental conditions. A dog trained on one combination of molecules
may not react to a different combination even though a body is present in the
vicinity. Moreover, the dog may react to hair, nails, flesh and/or blood, or their
remnants, which are shed by the living as well as by the dead. There is an inverse
relationship between the number of substances which a dog has been trained to
identify with particularity, and the specificity of the dog’s alert. 

http://hbslawfirm.com/articles_display.php?id=67

What a fascinating link.

The dog’s usefulness is a product of the skill of its handler. Its reliability, thus,
is a function of the handler’s interpretation. Some courts have likened a search dog
to an informant. As with a human informant, a handler can unconsciously cue a
22
dog. Indeed, there have been recorded instances of dishonest handlers having
23
consciously done so. Too, the handler’s interpretation is necessarily subjective.
24
See, e.g., Nat’l Fire Protection Assoc., Standard 921 Guide for Fire & Explosion Investigation
20
(2004 Ed.)(Proper objective of the use of dog team is to assist with the selection of samples that
have higher probability of laboratory confirmation; dog should be used in conjunction with, and
not in place of fire investigation methods).
1 A. J. Wigmore, Evidence § 177, at 1852 (1983)(“In actual usage, evidence of the conduct
21
of an animal is apt to be highly misleading, to the danger of the innocent men ... the very limited
nature of the inference possible is apt to be overestimated--a consequence dangerous when the
jurors are moved by local prejudice”); 1968 American Bar Association statement on use of dogs,
cited in Andrew Taslitz, Does the Cold Nose Know? The Unscientific Myth of the Dog Scent Lineup, 42
HASTINGS L. J. 15 (1990).
Harris v. State, 2011 WL 1496470, *9, __ So.3d __ (Fla. 2011).
22
Lisa Lit et al., Handler’s Beliefs Affect Scent Detection Dog Outcomes, ANIM. COGN. (January,
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2011). A response to Lit’s study may be found at Membership Commentary, Scientific Working

[Brietta]

What a fascinating link.

It is quite informative and at 2011 more recent than most.  It is actually a fascinating subject which I find very interesting but the consensus is that it is not an exact science; although the skills of the dogs are never in question just our interpretation of them maybe.

Anecdotal evidence about a dog's nose:
I placed an unopened pack of dog chocolate treats on top of a large bookcase;when my labrador came through the doorway she immediately whirled, sat down with nose in the air pointing at the treats which she could not see but certainly could smell because I had never put anything edible in that place before.

They can be trained to sniff out specifics such as bed bug infestations which have become a big problem in America ... I don't think there is much their noses can't tell them ... but in criminal cases their indications must be backed up with evidence and that is right and proper.

[ferryman]

It is quite informative and at 2011 more recent than most.  It is actually a fascinating subject which I find very interesting but the consensus is that it is not an exact science; although the skills of the dogs are never in question just our interpretation of them maybe.

Anecdotal evidence about a dog's nose:
I placed an unopened pack of dog chocolate treats on top of a large bookcase;when my labrador came through the doorway she immediately whirled, sat down with nose in the air pointing at the treats which she could not see but certainly could smell because I had never put anything edible in that place before.

They can be trained to sniff out specifics such as bed bug infestations which have become a big problem in America ... I don't think there is much their noses can't tell them ... but in criminal cases their indications must be backed up with evidence and that is right and proper.

although the skills of the dogs are never in question just our interpretation of them maybe.

And our deployment of them, as your link makes clear ...

[Mr Gray]

Mr Grime made is very clear that Eddie didn't alert to foodstuffs, pork included. Rotting uncooked pig meat is another matter since he was trained using it.

mr Grime has also made it clear that he cannot confirm that eddie alerted to cadaverine

[sadie]

Have you watched the full extended vehicle video?
He calls the dog back to various vehicles, not just the Scenic.
Have you watched the video of Eddie being called back repeatedly to the Corsa?
Sniffing under the boot and at the door seals of the Corsa.
He does. It's in the video.
Do you find it strange that Eddie did not alert to the Corsa, despite close sniffing of it, and despite being called back to it?

What I find particularly strange is:

1)  Eddie alerts to gases from within a car from outside.  Despite the door seal of a car being designed to be air and water tight under equal pressures.  Have you ever driven thru a flood in a reasonably recent car and had any water come in?  Same goes for air and scent.

 I doubt that the body of anyone was dragged thru that door.  So how the hell did any Cadavar odour get on the outside of the door?. 

Eddie alerts to dead pig odour, bodily fluids odour from living humans, and a host of other things apart from Cadavar odour.  Now which of these odours do you think could have been present on the lower part of the passenger door?


2)  The way that Eddie seemingly alerted to Cuddlecat, yet he clearly did not.  Even you have admitted that. 
He alerted to something on the top of the counter.  What looks like a pile of folders with a lose sheet of paper on top.  By great coincidence these folders and the sheet of paper happen to have been placed on the counter immediately above Eddie hidden within that cupboard.

How strange is that;A pile of papers with some Eddie attracting odour ended up being being placed on the counter immediately above Cuddlecat in the cupboard? 

Eddie alerts to pig cadavar odour as well as human cadavar odour.  I wonder who had been preparing or eating Pork that day?


3)  Amongst all the clothes laid out Eddie alerted to S***s top.  He did not alert to any of Madeleines clothes, just to that top of S***s, as far as I am aware.   

I find that strange.  Very strange.  Why was that?




Three very strange alerts there .. Were all the odours based on dead pig or what? ........ Hmmm? >@@(*&)

[pathfinder73]

What I find particularly strange is:

1)  Eddie alerts to gases from within a car from outside.  Despite the door seal of a car being designed to be air and water tight under equal pressures.  Have you ever driven thru a flood in a reasonably recent car and had any water come in?  Same goes for air and scent.

 I doubt that the body of anyone was dragged thru that door.  So how the hell did any Cadavar odour get on the outside of the door?. 

Eddie alerts to dead pig odour, bodily fluids odour from living humans, and a host of other things apart from Cadavar odour.  Now which of these odours do you think could have been present on the lower part of the passenger door?


2)  The way that Eddie seemingly alerted to Cuddlecat, yet he clearly did not.  Even you have admitted that. 
He alerted to something on the top of the counter.  What looks like a pile of folders with a lose sheet of paper on top.  By great coincidence these folders and the sheet of paper happen to have been placed on the counter immediately above Eddie hidden within that cupboard.

How strange is that;A pile of papers with some Eddie attracting odour ended up being being placed on the counter immediately above Cuddlecat in the cupboard? 

Eddie alerts to pig cadavar odour as well as human cadavar odour.  I wonder who had been preparing or eating Pork that day?


3)  Amongst all the clothes laid out Eddie alerted to S***s top.  He did not alert to any of Madeleines clothes, just to that top of S***s, as far as I am aware.   

I find that strange.  Very strange.  Why was that?




Three very strange alerts there .. Were all the odours based on dead pig or what? ........ Hmmm? >@@(*&)

Car door seals are air tight - do you have trouble breathing inside your car? LOL. The rest of your comments have been answered. Eddie alerted to the only thing that changed in that room and it wasn't anything on top of the sideboard/cupboard but what was put inside it. Eddie didn't alert to pork in the bin. Are we looking for a missing dead pig in this case?

[Carana]

Eddie doesn't appear to have been a specialist; Keela was the specialist.

[Jean-Pierre]

Eddie doesn't appear to have been a specialist; Keela was the specialist.

Apparently Eddie was an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog.

This is puzzling, as I cannot find any other reference to such a thing.  Plenty of common or garden Victim Recovery Dogs, but the use of Enhanced seem to be unique and not recognised anywhere else in the dog world. 

Does anyone have any other reference to an EVRD? 

[sadie]

Car door seals are air tight - do you have trouble breathing inside your car? LOL. The rest of your comments have been answered. Eddie alerted to the only thing that changed in that room and it wasn't anything on top of the sideboard/cupboard but what was put inside it. Eddie didn't alert to pork in the bin. Are we looking for a missing dead pig in this case?

The air doesn't come in via the door seals. 
Plenty of places it comes in, but not at the door seals unless there is a difference in pressure inside to out.


And Eddie did NOT alert to cuddlecat.  He alerted to some pile on the counter, which looked like folders with a piece of paper on top


Pegasus is on your side and has a good brain [most of the time] ask him if Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat or to something on the top of the counter ?  Also John has stated that there was something wrong and Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat


Do try and get your facts right Pathfinder.  Please.

[pathfinder73]

The air doesn't come in via the door seals. 
Plenty of places it comes in, but not at the door seals unless there is a difference in pressure inside to out.


And Eddie did NOT alert to cuddlecat.  He alerted to some pile on the counter, which looked like folders with a piece of paper on top


Pegasus is on your side and has a good brain [most of the time] ask him if Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat or to something on the top of the counter ?  Also John has stated that there was something wrong and Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat


Do try and get your facts right Pathfinder.  Please.

Pegasus is not on my side - we have totally different theories. What have you been reading for the past 6 months? CC was the only thing that changed the 2nd time to make Eddie alert. Dogs like to play with toys! That's why it was hidden inside the cupboard.

[Alfred R Jones]

Apparently Eddie was an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog.

This is puzzling, as I cannot find any other reference to such a thing.  Plenty of common or garden Victim Recovery Dogs, but the use of Enhanced seem to be unique and not recognised anywhere else in the dog world. 

Does anyone have any other reference to an EVRD?

No, the term appears to only apply to Grime's dogs - perhaps the E actually stands for Eddie and not Enhanced?

[pathfinder73]

No, the term appears to only apply to Grime's dogs - perhaps the E actually stands for Eddie and not Enhanced?

Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains. He is able to smell through solid materials, like concrete, because of scientifically-based training techniques.

The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

"A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically it's nose is super sensitive. It's also about getting the dog to really focus on a task."

[Alfred R Jones]

Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains. He is able to smell through solid materials, like concrete, because of scientifically-based training techniques.

The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

"A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically it's nose is super sensitive. It's also about getting the dog to really focus on a task."

Why is he the only dog ever to be awarded this title (as far as anyone can ascertain...)?

[Alice Purjorick]

The air doesn't come in via the door seals. 
Plenty of places it comes in, but not at the door seals unless there is a difference in pressure inside to out.


And Eddie did NOT alert to cuddlecat.  He alerted to some pile on the counter, which looked like folders with a piece of paper on top


Pegasus is on your side and has a good brain [most of the time] ask him if Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat or to something on the top of the counter ?  Also John has stated that there was something wrong and Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat


Do try and get your facts right Pathfinder.  Please.

How would that be possible unless the vehicle were airtight?