Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Wonderfulspam]

So, because during one extremely brief update the public was exposed only to one of the most famous images of the child, you conclude that the direction of the SY investigation has changed. You don't think it might simply have been that in such a short report it was better to use the known image to get the focus of the public on the issue more immediately? Your second-guessing the motive for the use of this particular picture is simply that, guesswork.

As you are presumably fully aware, though apparently reluctant to admit it, the answer to my question is clear. There has been no suggestion from anyone at SY or for that matter the Oporto PJ Investigation team that they are doing anything other than continuing in the work they have been doing for some time, that is searching for a missing child who may be dead but also may be alive.

get the focus of the public on the issue more immediately?

The issue is a missing child who is apparently real, live & findable & whom we are encouraged to look for, is it not.

What use to us the vigilant public or, more importantly, to Madeleine, is a picture of her aged 3.

Why would I be reluctant to admit they have said they think she may be alive?

They definiteley said it, I just aint stupid enough to believe it.

[jassi]

get the focus of the public on the issue more immediately?

The issue is a missing child who is apparently real, live & findable & whom we are encouraged to look for, is it not.

What use to us the vigilant public or, more importantly, to Madeleine, is a picture of her aged 3.

Why would I be reluctant to admit they have said they think she may be alive?

They definiteley said it, I just aint stupid enough to believe it.

And it is only their opinion. They may just possibly  know that she is dead, but they certainly don't that she is alive.

[icabodcrane]

You are absolutely correct to differentiate between the two possibilities. But from the statements made by both organisations over the last year or so I believe they are doing searching for the child and also attempting to find the perpetrator. However the search for a missing child was specifically relevant to the post I was making and it's connection to the question as to whether the dog alerts prove the death of Madeleine or not,  and therefore I mentioned that.

Bit in bold

...  but no-one on this forum has raised that question

No-one here has ever suggested that the cadaver dog alert  'proves'  that Madeleine died in the apartment

The issue here is whether or not Scotland Yard were sufficiently convinced that the cadaver dog alert was suggestive  of the missing child having died in apartment 5A   ...  convinced enough,  in fact,  to have made an announcement that they do,  indeed,  believe she may have died there

[Carana]

Yes, Grime is clear about that in his report where he states that no human remains (or potential human remains) were found so there was nothing to analyse. He still went on to make it clear that the alerts were only "suggestive" of cadaver scent and could not be definitive evidence of such.

Yes, that seems to be correct.

[Serendipity]

I take issue based on the clear statements of Martin Grime with this sentence in your post.


I do not believe there is any documentation from Grime which suggests this is the truth and it is this belief which is incorrect which confuses the issue and suggests that there is some kind of proof that a death occurred in Apartment 5A for example..

What Martin Grime is very clear to point out is that if Eddie alerts without Keela that results in the possibility of Cadaver Scent and is not definitive proof that Cadaver Scent is present.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

He goes on to say that the alert from the dog may also be the result of cross-contamination at the scene and that no evidential reliability can be placed on the alerts as they stand.

Amaral, for example, seems to ignore these rather important qualifications within the Grime report.

He trains his dogs and he trains them well. When they alert he knows what they are alerting to is within the trained parameters of the dog, nothing else. It is not up to him to prove that what they have alerted to means that there was a dead body/body part, that is the police's job.  It is up to them to corroborate the alerts. Non corroboration does not mean that his dogs were wrong. FSS was unable to rule Madeleine in or out forensically.  Remember that. His dogs have never been proven wrong to date and their highest accolade came in 2012 when D'Andre Lane was convicted of killing his two year old daughter when Head of the FBI's Forensic Canine program Rex Stockham testified  'We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect'  That's how good Martin Grime's training of his dogs is!

[.... removed remark ...]

[Estuarine]

I think maybe many of the dog- lovers  discussing the Madeleine case might love them and their handler a bit more had they alerted somewhere.........anywhere...........other than around the McCanns!      (imo of course)

Considering they think the dogs were rubbish why do they keep banging on about it on seven different threads? Who are they trying to convince?
You could paper a few walls if you printed off all the bleedin' posts 

[Mr Gray]

Considering they think the dogs were rubbish why do they keep banging on about it on seven different threads? Who are trying to convince?
You could paper a few walls if you printed off all the bleedin' the posts 

This is the usual banal resonse...as long as their are threads then posters of either side will answer claims made by the upper...as long as posters bang on about the dogs telling us that Maddie died in the apartment...then I for one will continually correct them

[jassi]

Considering they think the dogs were rubbish why do they keep banging on about it on seven different threads? Who are trying to convince?
You could paper a few walls if you printed off all the bleedin' the posts 

Because they can 

I've long worked on the principle that the more people attempt to deny, or rubbish something, the more likely it is to be true.

[Serendipity]

A few more to add to the list I posted earlier about the  reliability of these dogs:

Eddie was part of the enquiry that found the body parts of 17 year old Shafilea Ahmed

His first find was Barnsley man Shane Collier whose body was split over two graves.

Part of the inquiry team that found the body of pensioner Attracta Harron, who is believed to have been murdered in Northern Ireland. They discovered her remains in a river bank in County Tyrone.

Police in Northern Ireland, including a team of divers, had conducted extensive searches for Mrs Harron, but had been unable to trace her.

PC Ellis said: "If it hadn't have been for the dogs we would have missed her."

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216

[Mr Gray]

A few more to add to the list I posted earlier about the  reliability of these dogs:

Eddie was part of the enquiry that found the body parts of 17 year old Shafilea Ahmed

His first find was Barnsley man Shane Collier whose body was split over two graves.

Part of the inquiry team that found the body of pensioner Attracta Harron, who is believed to have been murdered in Northern Ireland. They discovered her remains in a river bank in County Tyrone.

Police in Northern Ireland, including a team of divers, had conducted extensive searches for Mrs Harron, but had been unable to trace her.

PC Ellis said: "If it hadn't have been for the dogs we would have missed her."

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216

yes we are all well aware that if theres a stiff eddie will find it...the problem is...what if theres no stiff and eddie alerts...you keep answering the WRONG question

[Carew]

yes we are all well aware that if theres a stiff eddie will find it...the problem is...what if theres no stiff and eddie alerts...you keep answering the WRONG question

Well.....if there`s a stiff you wouldn`t need Eddie to find it.

[Mr Gray]

Well.....if there`s a stiff you wouldn`t need Eddie to find it.

well serendipity has just posted that eddie found three...it seems that's eddies strong point...and as he is an enhanced victim recovery dog...not a scent of death dog...it makes sense

[Serendipity]

and another find by Eddie.  Charlotte Pinkney's killer jailed for life http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4264963.stm

Charlotte Pinkney was abducted by an ex-boyfriend and has never been seen since.
An initial search by the EVRD revealed a 'classic' secondary deposition site near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. The investigative team distrusted the dogs opinion until a full forensic search revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. This evidence was put to the suspect who fully admitted the offence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[Carew]

well serendipity has just posted that eddie found three...it seems that's eddies strong point

I know, Davel........sorry for any offence.....just being facetious.

[Mr Gray]

and another find by Eddie.  Charlotte Pinkney's killer jailed for life http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4264963.stm

Charlotte Pinkney was abducted by an ex-boyfriend and has never been seen since.
An initial search by the EVRD revealed a 'classic' secondary deposition site near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. The investigative team distrusted the dogs opinion until a full forensic search revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. This evidence was put to the suspect who fully admitted the offence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

You are actually getting a little closer to reality...eddie found a body part...eddie found a body...eddie found  abutton...all those thgings are evidenece...in pdl...eddie found b....r all