Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 375910 times)

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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2014, 11:31:29 AM »
I think what posters have lost sight of is the meaning of the alerts...which have been explained by john

Posters are aware.

It is simply the forensics were inconclusive, as you know well.

Offline Carew

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2014, 11:32:22 AM »
I think what posters have lost sight of is the meaning of the alerts...which have been explained by john

I think what you`ve lost sight of is that you can`t generalise about what other people understand about the meaning of the alerts from the inflated assumption that you do.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2014, 11:34:48 AM »
I think what you`ve lost sight of is that you can`t generalise about what other people understand about the meaning of the alerts from the inflated assumption that you do.

I judge them from what they post

Offline Carew

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2014, 11:35:18 AM »
Posters are aware.

It is simply the forensics were inconclusive, as you know well.


Exactly!

Offline Carew

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2014, 11:36:17 AM »
I judge them from what they post

Judge them by who they are, more like!

Offline Benice

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2014, 11:42:24 AM »
Benice:-
I agree Eleanor.   

Eddie didn't know that what he did was 'work' - to him it was something he did which led to lots of praise and a treat from his owner.    IMO he would naturally be excited at that prospect - especially in the first few moments after being released from being confined in his cage for a while
[/b]

Perhaps one of you could clarify your points.


Was the dog given treats for alerting in the apartment and was excited at the prospect?

If true, wouldn`t this affect the dog`s accuracy?

( I did ask earlier, but Eleanor has been rather busy tonight.)



Carew:-

Thankyou, Benice....Here`s what I mean......

(and yes, I have watched videos, read reports,etc. .....Please leave out the patronising assumptions that given access to your intepretations / assessments of reports and videos, we will all "see the light."  These superior asides seem part and parcel of the entrenched mind-set brought over from your like-minded groups, in which abusing and educating the numpties for a long row of applauding smilies is the norm.)


Isn`t it a matter of accuracy to be specific, rather than post an observation which implies that an excited dog who has been trained with treats will be anticipating receiving them if he alerts?



( By the way, being "interested in a ball" is not the same as an alert.)

 Is that clearer?

Do you feel that it is treats and praise which motivated the EVRD to alert?

This needs clarifying because it implies that if he doesn`t alert ........there`ll be no treaties = disappointed doggie.

You see, I feel that there is far more to this than your " don`t you see the light, statements of the obvious"......which taken to their conclusion means there is no point at all in deploying the dogs.

Is that meant for me?    If so could you elaborate - as I have no idea what you are talking about? 

Eddie was trained to alert for reward - but he was also trained to understand that only a correct alert earned him that reward.   So no point in making false alerts.

I have never questioned the validity of the dog's alerts.   

Grime said Eddie became excited at 5A (words to that effect)  - IMO after watching the video he was already excited long  before he got there and I find it impossible to believe that he got excited because he could detect cadaverscent coming from inside 5A from such a long distance away (from as far back as the vehicle)  and outside in the fresh air.     If you disagree then that is your  prerogative, and we shall have to agree to disagree.

 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2014, 11:49:04 AM »
Is that meant for me?    If so could you elaborate - as I have no idea what you are talking about? 

Eddie was trained to alert for reward - but he was also trained to understand that only a correct alert earned him that reward.   So no point in making false alerts.

I have never questioned the validity of the dog's alerts.   

Grime said Eddie became excited at 5A (words to that effect)  - IMO after watching the video he was already excited long  before he got there and I find it impossible to believe that he got excited because he could detect cadaverscent coming from inside 5A from such a long distance away (from as far back as the vehicle)  and outside in the fresh air.     If you disagree then that is your  prerogative, and we shall have to agree to disagree.

 

With respect, do you have any working dog experience Benice?   I ask you this since anyone who has would not have made such a comment.

Anyone who has ever worked with these dogs knows the difference between being excited at being out and about and actually finding something.  Clue...its all in the tale.    8(0(*

Why do you think Martin tapped Eddie on the butt prior to searching?

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_communication


« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 11:58:37 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Benice

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2014, 12:37:42 PM »
With respect, do you have any working dog experience Benice?   I ask you this since anyone who has would not have made such a comment.

Anyone who has ever worked with these dogs knows the difference between being excited at being out and about and actually finding something.  Clue...its all in the tale.    8(0(*

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_communication

Only inasmuch as I was married to a farmer's son.  The sheepdog did get very excited when he first set off to work.   It was a different story at the end of the day when he returned  home.

IMO Eddie  knew he was setting off to 'work' once released from the vehicle  - and that is why he got excited - not because he had detected cadaverscent.     And I didn't see any change in that excited behaviour when he got to 5A - which I presume was his first job of the day.     



The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2014, 12:39:17 PM »
Only inasmuch as I was married to a farmer's son.  The sheepdog did get very excited when he first set off to work.   It was a different story at the end of the day when he returned  home.

IMO Eddie  knew he was setting off to 'work' once released from the vehicle  - and that is why he got excited - not because he had detected cadaverscent.     And I didn't see any change in that excited behaviour when he got to 5A - which I presume was his first job of the day.     

That is your supposition, and no more than that.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2014, 12:39:26 PM »
Is that meant for me?    If so could you elaborate - as I have no idea what you are talking about? 

Eddie was trained to alert for reward - but he was also trained to understand that only a correct alert earned him that reward.   So no point in making false alerts.

I have never questioned the validity of the dog's alerts.   

Grime said Eddie became excited at 5A (words to that effect)  - IMO after watching the video he was already excited long  before he got there and I find it impossible to believe that he got excited because he could detect cadaverscent coming from inside 5A from such a long distance away (from as far back as the vehicle)  and outside in the fresh air.     If you disagree then that is your  prerogative, and we shall have to agree to disagree.

 

Sniffer dogs are not trained by giving a reward. The scent they are trained to detect is associated with a favourite toy or plaything and the dog is just looking for his toy.

P.S. I know what comes next...
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2014, 12:45:18 PM »
Eddie barked at the wardrobe because he was excited  @)(++(* Or maybe he barked because he wanted to go back in his cage  @)(++(*  8-)(--)
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2014, 12:48:01 PM »
Eddie barked at the wardrobe because he was excited  @)(++(* Or maybe he barked because he wanted to go back in his cage  @)(++(*  8-)(--)

...or maybe he detected cadaver scent.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2014, 12:51:39 PM »
...or maybe he detected cadaver scent.

I think you are probably right as that is what he was there for  8(>((
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Carew

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2014, 12:54:39 PM »
Is that meant for me?    If so could you elaborate - as I have no idea what you are talking about? 

Eddie was trained to alert for reward - but he was also trained to understand that only a correct alert earned him that reward.   So no point in making false alerts.

I have never questioned the validity of the dog's alerts.   

Grime said Eddie became excited at 5A (words to that effect)  - IMO after watching the video he was already excited long  before he got there and I find it impossible to believe that he got excited because he could detect cadaverscent coming from inside 5A from such a long distance away (from as far back as the vehicle)  and outside in the fresh air.     If you disagree then that is your  prerogative, and we shall have to agree to disagree.

 

 Benice.............

Your self-assessed superior "common sense" would ensure that you understood quite well that my response was to you, surely?..........It is obvious and the post is quite clear.

There is nothing to add.

You are inclined to put out propaganda by selectively adopting your "common sense " assessment of the deployment of the dogs......(imo. of course.)



« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 12:56:34 PM by Carew »

Offline Carew

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2014, 01:10:46 PM »
Only inasmuch as I was married to a farmer's son.  The sheepdog did get very excited when he first set off to work.   It was a different story at the end of the day when he returned  home.

IMO Eddie  knew he was setting off to 'work' once released from the vehicle  - and that is why he got excited - not because he had detected cadaverscent.     And I didn't see any change in that excited behaviour when he got to 5A - which I presume was his first job of the day.     

Absolutely entrenched " I know best" mind-set.

Mr/PC Grime`s  opinion is what stands in the investigation, as far as we are aware.