Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[ferryman]

From the very first comments of Redwood about the case it has been stated that Madeleine may be alive and may not be alive. You are clutching at very faint ghosts of straws with this line. There has always been the possibility that she died in the apartment right back to May 2007. That has nothing to do with the dogs. It is entirely to do with logic.
That you think this is a step forward is quite amusing.

Neither does it have anything to do with the McCanns or their friends.

There is a tragic possibility that an intruder (unknown) murdered Madeleine in the apartment and took her body with him.

That would make (most likely!) him, not an abductor, but a murderer, who also concealed a body.

[gilet]

In fact, they didn't merely decide that Madeleine was definitely dead.

They decided that she had been murdered

Do you not realise that the statement you have made there is totally incorrect?

Nobody with any standing in this case (other than Amaral and his team whose thesis has never to this day been backed up with evidence) has ever decided that Madeleine had been murdered. That is simply not true.

They have recognised the possibility that she is dead, that she may have died from accidental causes, that she may have been murdered even. They have also recognised at the same time that there is no proof of that and that she may well be alive.

That has been the situation throughout the case and remains so today, no matter how many posters on forums might pretend, with such statements as that in your post, otherwise.

[ferryman]

That is not what you quoted in post 260

I quoted Harrison's terms of reference in post 260.

And ...

[jassi]

I quoted Harrison's terms of reference in post 260.

And ...

the word used is homicide.

[gilet]

Harrison's terms of reference:

Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.

1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains.
2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension.
3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching.
4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann (locate, rather than find) as applicable to the latest intelligence and informtion provided.
5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection.
6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann.
7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.


So did Harrison write his own terms of reference?

The terms of reference were jointly agreed between representatives of the PJ and of the NPIA (ie members of Guilhermino Ferreira da Encarnação's team and Mark Harrison) at a meeting on 20 July 2007.

[gilet]

That is not what you quoted in post 260

In one case Harrison uses the term 'homicide', in the other Harrison specifically uses the term 'murdered'.

Those are both direct quotations from him.

I am at a complete loss as to understand what problem you have with that fact. I am presuming, of course, that you have read his reports and are aware that he uses both those terms at different points.

[jassi]

In one case Harrison uses the term 'homicide', in the other Harrison specifically uses the term 'murdered'.

Those are both direct quotations from him.

I am at a complete loss as to understand what problem you have with that fact.

I have no problem beyond what was quoted in post 260 was not the word murder. Homicide has a wider meaning, particularly in other countries. I am quite happy to accept that Harrison used the word in another document.

[gilet]

I have no problem beyond what was quoted in post 260 was not the word murder. Homicide has a wider meaning, particularly in other countries. I am quite happy to accept that Harrison used the word in another document.

I am afraid that you have completely invented this problem of the word in post not being murder.

You seem to be under the impression that someone has claimed that it was. I think that is a mistake on your part.

I apologise if I am wrong about that but cannot find anyone having done so. Can you provide me with a link or am I correct about the matter?

[Cariad]

From the very first comments of Redwood about the case it has been stated that Madeleine may be alive and may not be alive. You are clutching at very faint ghosts of straws with this line. There has always been the possibility that she died in the apartment right back to May 2007. That has nothing to do with the dogs. It is entirely to do with logic.
That you think this is a step forward is quite amusing.

May be alive, may not be alive and my not be alive when she left the apartment are very different things indeed. They aren't saying that she may have been abducted and murdered, but that she may not have been abducted at all. In fact DCI Redwood stated that abduction "doesn't follow all our thinking in this case".

I've asked before, but never received an answer, so I'll ask again. Has anyone ever heard of a stranger entering a property, committing a murder, then removing the body?

[jassi]

I am afraid that you have completely invented this problem of the word in post not being murder.

You seem to be under the impression that someone has claimed that it was. I think that is a mistake on your part.

I apologise if I am wrong about that but cannot find anyone having done so. Can you provide me with a link or am I correct about the matter?

The word used in post 260 is homicide, not murder and I pointed out that this had meanings other than murder. End of.
I have said that I accept that Harrison used the word murder in another document.

I think you just like to nit-pick.

[Wonderfulspam]

Quote from: davel on January 28, 2014, 08:00:18 PM

I think we have already established the chances of Maddie dying in the apartment are non existent...what could she have died from?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3150.735

[Carew]

How ridiculous! You expect me to know when commenting on a post that you have forgotten to put in a word which makes the sense very different.

Nothing stopped them. Nothing at all. It has always been a possibility. It was considered by the PJ if you had not noticed back in 2007.

.........and you stop being so rude!......

(or are you another one on a mission to abuse and educate an imagined lynch mob for a high-five with Davel and a row of flag- waving smilies from your other cronies?)

You bypassed my earlier reply to your own post, which explained perfectly well what I meant............ preferring to pounce onto a mistake in a later one to Carana.........not to you at all!

It is also obvious that SY in their review have not, until recently, mentioned the possibility of a death in the apartment...........

Stop muddying it with mentioning the PJ in 2007.

[John]

You can spin all you like but Martin Grime is not as confident as you about what the alerts mean...but what does he know..hes only the expert

You still don't get it Dave.  As a professional expert dog handler Martin Grime has to be very careful how he words his reports for obvious reasons. He and Eddie had a long history of success together well before the McCann case, some of these cases Serendipity has already referred to. He knows very well what Eddie alerted to in apartment 5a but as he stated in his report, this cannot be confirmed or corroborated without scientific forensic evidence to back it up.  He didn't come out and declare that Madeleine died in apartment 5a but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Cariad]

Quote from: davel on January 28, 2014, 08:00:18 PM

I think we have already established the chances of Maddie dying in the apartment are non existent...what could she have died from?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3150.735

But... but... I don't understand? Isn't davel now saying that there was always a chance of Maddie (sic) Dying in the apartment and that sy saying that means nothing?


Mind.Blown.

[Serendipity]

You still don't get it Dave.  As a professional expert dog handler Martin Grime has to be very careful how he words his reports for obvious reasons. He and Eddie had a long history of success together well before the McCann case, some of these cases Serendipity has already referred to. He knows very well what Eddie alerted to in apartment 5a but as he stated in his report, this cannot be confirmed or corroborated without scientific forensic evidence to back it up.  He didn't come out and declare that Madeleine died in apartment 5a but that doesn't mean it isn't true.