Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 355064 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #750 on: April 09, 2014, 11:31:55 AM »
Plus the fact that cCat was hidden in a very slightly open cupboard.   Eddie sniffed twice close, right past it and then alerted to a pile of ?folders or a sheet of paper on top of the pile. 

Seems they must have been cross contaminated.  I prefer to think that, rather than they may have been deliberately contaminated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg

@3.41 and 3.52 particularly. 

Martin is mistaken in thinking that Eddie alerted to Ccat.  He clearly alerted to something on the top of the counter, the pile of ?folders or the loose sheet of paper?  NOT cCat.  How were these papers/ folders cross contaminated?

Only one thing changed in that part of the room and it wasn't bringing in a pile of papers.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #751 on: April 09, 2014, 11:54:32 AM »
My stance on working dogs in general is that they impress me. A dog's nose is more sensitive than our best scientific equipment. That will change. One day, probably in the not too distant future, we will have a way of confirming a dog alert and then all these arguments will become obsolete.

I tend towards the belief that a dog will alert to what it was trained to alert to. You've given us an example of a dog that alerted 45 times in 24 locations in which it was believed a body had been, only later to discover that the 'murderer' was lying.

As far as I can see the only real explanations for that is that:
 A, the dog was somehow being unconsciously cued by the handler
 B, the murderer was actually telling the truth the first time around and lying on his recantation.
 C, By coincidence those locations were the scene of a crime and cadaver was left there.

C is too much of a coincidence for me. I am (to my detriment) unable to believe six impossible things before breakfast, so C is off my list.

B is possible, but from the article it would appear to be highly unlikely. More likely than C, but still a very outside chance, so I'm left with A.

Does believing that handler bias is the most likely cause in this case mean that all working dogs should immediately be retired?  That we should dismiss the experiments that have proved their accuracy? that the bodies, bombs, drugs etc that have been discovered by these dogs should be put back and dismissed as coincidence?

Again, that isn't a logical step to take. Accepting that mistakes can happen doesn't mean that mistakes always happen.

All the alerts in the Zampo case were uncorroborated apparently. That is not the case for Eddie and Keela. There were human materials found in locations that were alerted to. That could be  a coincidence, but so could Zampo happening across cadaver from other crimes, so without further information, it's probably best to assume coincidence is unlikely.

I would love more information about Zampo. From the bit of research I did yesterday, I found that his trainer is still working and that Zampo successfully alerted to 2000 year old remains (links supplied in last nights post) I would really like to hear what his trainer has to say about it all. 


Edited to add, all IMNEO
Thanks for your response.

I agree with your reasoning re: Zampo's alerts and your conclusion that handler bias almost certainly was to blame for the false alerts.  Where I disagree with you is on the extent of corroborative evidence of the dog alerts in the Madeleine McCann case.  There was none in my opinion (and I believe, in the opinion of the Portuguese authorities when they archived the case), certainly nothing whatsoever that confirms a dead body lay in either the apartment or the hire car.  Therefore, using exactly the same reasoning as you did regarding the Thomas  Quick case I have come to the conclusion that handler bias(most likely unconscious) most probably played a role in the McCann case too.  I would think it likely that Grime would have been made aware of the police's suspicions about the parents prior to the searches, will obviously have been aware of which apartment(s) they occupied and which car they drove whilst in PdL.  It is quite possible that this  resulted in unconscious cueing of the dogs on his part.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you will disagree and that is of course your prerogative but at least we both agree that "cadaver" dog alerts do not always signify the presence of a cadaver and that handler bias is sometimes the only logical explanation for why a dog alerted.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #752 on: April 09, 2014, 12:23:11 PM »
my opinion is that there never was a cadaver in 5a....simple laws of logic apply

the mistake posters are making is to relate eddie's role as an EVRD dog to his role as an "I'll point to where you might find some evidence" dog.

Eddie was taken to PDL to try and shed some light on what happened to Maddie by helping to find some forensic evidence. Martin Grime took him to the apartment to point to where some evidence might be. It didn't matter how many times Grime cued eddie...bought him back to the same spot...tried again where Grime thought there might be something......how many times he made the dog have another look...they were looking for evidence and it was important not to miss any possible evidence...as it was none was found.

this ties in with Grime's statement that the alerts were suggestive...and they were...suggestive as to where evidence might be found...places of interest to look closely...but none was found.

eddie did his job properly...Grime did his job properly....but there was no evidence to be found...it's a simple as that

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #753 on: April 09, 2014, 12:39:07 PM »
my opinion is that there never was a cadaver in 5a....simple laws of logic apply

the mistake posters are making is to relate eddie's role as an EVRD dog to his role as an "I'll point to where you might find some evidence" dog.

Eddie was taken to PDL to try and shed some light on what happened to Maddie by helping to find some forensic evidence. Martin Grime took him to the apartment to point to where some evidence might be. It didn't matter how many times Grime cued eddie...bought him back to the same spot...tried again where Grime thought there might be something......how many times he made the dog have another look...they were looking for evidence and it was important not to miss any possible evidence...as it was none was found.

this ties in with Grime's statement that the alerts were suggestive...and they were...suggestive as to where evidence might be found...places of interest to look closely...but none was found.

eddie did his job properly...Grime did his job properly....but there was no evidence to be found...it's a simple as that

No points on that one.

As you are fond of saying davel, posters opinions have no weight.

Also, a brief reminder, the forensics were INCONCLUSIVE. 8((()*/

Offline Carew

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #754 on: April 09, 2014, 01:19:33 PM »
How about two equally unsubtle but very direct links with the McCann case: cuddle-cat, played with but not alerted to -- then hidden and alerted to.

Clothes in the villa -- no interest from the dog -- same clothes in the gym, apparently "alerted to" ...

No interest/alert from the dog? = Well there can`t have been any cuing, then ; no expectation of a treat later; no handler expectation or looking at posters ; no handler tapping the items or leading him back ; the dog can`t have been given as long as he was for other items ; no cross contamination.....etc., etc.

An alert or interest shown by the dog? = Reverse all the above "reasons"

.........and round and round it goes......An incompetent handler/unreliable dog assumption or allegation tailored to fit any alert or non alert.

The bottom line still remains that a cadaver dog alerted in the place a missing child was last seen. SY have recently commented that Madeleine may not have been alive when she left it.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #755 on: April 09, 2014, 01:44:57 PM »
Only one thing changed in that part of the room and it wasn't bringing in a pile of papers.
Can you be explicit?   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg

@ 3.41 and 3,52 particularaly
Can you see what I mean about Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat but to the pile of ?folders, or the sheet of paper on top?

Offline Carana

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #756 on: April 09, 2014, 02:10:04 PM »
My stance on working dogs in general is that they impress me. A dog's nose is more sensitive than our best scientific equipment. That will change. One day, probably in the not too distant future, we will have a way of confirming a dog alert and then all these arguments will become obsolete.

I tend towards the belief that a dog will alert to what it was trained to alert to. You've given us an example of a dog that alerted 45 times in 24 locations in which it was believed a body had been, only later to discover that the 'murderer' was lying.

As far as I can see the only real explanations for that is that:
 A, the dog was somehow being unconsciously cued by the handler
 B, the murderer was actually telling the truth the first time around and lying on his recantation.
 C, By coincidence those locations were the scene of a crime and cadaver was left there.

C is too much of a coincidence for me. I am (to my detriment) unable to believe six impossible things before breakfast, so C is off my list.

B is possible, but from the article it would appear to be highly unlikely. More likely than C, but still a very outside chance, so I'm left with A.

Does believing that handler bias is the most likely cause in this case mean that all working dogs should immediately be retired?  That we should dismiss the experiments that have proved their accuracy? that the bodies, bombs, drugs etc that have been discovered by these dogs should be put back and dismissed as coincidence?

Again, that isn't a logical step to take. Accepting that mistakes can happen doesn't mean that mistakes always happen.

All the alerts in the Zampo case were uncorroborated apparently. That is not the case for Eddie and Keela. There were human materials found in locations that were alerted to. That could be  a coincidence, but so could Zampo happening across cadaver from other crimes, so without further information, it's probably best to assume coincidence is unlikely.

I would love more information about Zampo. From the bit of research I did yesterday, I found that his trainer is still working and that Zampo successfully alerted to 2000 year old remains (links supplied in last nights post) I would really like to hear what his trainer has to say about it all. 


Edited to add, all IMNEO

I agree with most of that, Cariad. However, I think that there is another possibility. A subset of A, possibly.

In operation, as opposed to research blind tests, the handler would presumably be aware of the search area in question and may - or may not - be already aware of why the canine team is being asked to search in a particular area.

A dog may pick up inadvertent cues from the handler and concentrate to the point where some of the substances it's trained to react to are present, even if not in totality. I or someone else pointed out that such dogs can react in areas with peat bogs (I think, from memory), as some of the compounds would naturally be present. The dogs aren't necessarily wrong, but it's the human interpretation of alerts that can be mistaken (as well as possible mistakes from the dogs themselves).

As with any aspect of a case, innocent explanations should be ruled out.

ETA Both by forensic evidence as, after all, that is what is being sought, and by ruling out irrelevant/innocent other reasons for alerts or any forensic evidence that may be found.




« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 02:24:22 PM by Carana »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #757 on: April 09, 2014, 03:13:08 PM »
Posters are reminded that personal and abusive posts will be removed

Offline John

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #758 on: April 09, 2014, 03:18:09 PM »
Posters are reminded that personal and abusive posts will be removed

 8((()*/   Must be about 4 pages worth by now. Thanks SH
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #759 on: April 09, 2014, 03:38:45 PM »
The bottom line remains the same.

The forensics were inconclusive, so nothing has been proved or disproved.

Meanwhile on the 'abduction', no forensics at all. In fact nothing, but hyperbole.

No sign or indication at all.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #760 on: April 09, 2014, 04:13:30 PM »
No points on that one.

As you are fond of saying davel, posters opinions have no weight.

Also, a brief reminder, the forensics were INCONCLUSIVE. 8((()*/

the post was purely my opinion as others post theirs. You are quite correct the forensics were not conclusive

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #761 on: April 09, 2014, 04:14:46 PM »
The bottom line remains the same.

The forensics were inconclusive, so nothing has been proved or disproved.

Meanwhile on the 'abduction', no forensics at all. In fact nothing, but hyperbole.

No sign or indication at all.

The subject of this thread is Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  My personal view is that they can usually be relied upon to find human remains when there are any to be discovered in the area being searched, but when the dogs alert and no body or forensics are found we cannot interpret the alert as confirmation of the one-time presence of human remains. 

 

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #762 on: April 09, 2014, 04:17:55 PM »
The subject of this thread is Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  My personal view is that they can usually be relied upon to find human remains when there are any to be discovered in the area being searched, but when the dogs alert and no body or forensics are found we cannot interpret the alert as confirmation of the one-time presence of human remains.

That is exactly my opinion and thats why I made my previous post...This also fits with what grime has said in his satements

Offline Mr Moderator

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #763 on: April 09, 2014, 04:37:17 PM »
The subject of this thread is Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  My personal view is that they can usually be relied upon to find human remains when there are any to be discovered in the area being searched, but when the dogs alert and no body or forensics are found we cannot interpret the alert as confirmation of the one-time presence of human remains.

I will go with that 52 pages later.   8)><(

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #764 on: April 09, 2014, 04:45:21 PM »
The subject of this thread is Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  My personal view is that they can usually be relied upon to find human remains when there are any to be discovered in the area being searched, but when the dogs alert and no body or forensics are found we cannot interpret the alert as confirmation of the one-time presence of human remains. 

 

And it depends on the dog. Their false alert/previous case record, reputation, training, experience, other relevant facts like Eddie not alerting to pork in the bins in PDL etc. must be taken into account. Did Harrison recommend using these dogs?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 04:49:55 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.