Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[stephen25000]

The subject of this thread is Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  My personal view is that they can usually be relied upon to find human remains when there are any to be discovered in the area being searched, but when the dogs alert and no body or forensics are found we cannot interpret the alert as confirmation of the one-time presence of human remains.

There is a subtle difference between 'no forensics' and 'inconclusive forensics'.

However, there is no evidence of anything else that would stand up in court.

[Alfred R Jones]

I will go with that 52 pages later.   

Don't cry!  There will be another dog thread along in a little while, there always is eventually...

[ferryman]

No interest/alert from the dog? = Well there can`t have been any cuing, then ; no expectation of a treat later; no handler expectation or looking at posters ; no handler tapping the items or leading him back ; the dog can`t have been given as long as he was for other items ; no cross contamination.....etc., etc.

An alert or interest shown by the dog? = Reverse all the above "reasons"

.........and round and round it goes......An incompetent handler/unreliable dog assumption or allegation tailored to fit any alert or non alert.

The bottom line still remains that a cadaver dog alerted in the place a missing child was last seen. SY have recently commented that Madeleine may not have been alive when she left it.

I happen to believe that Grime's modus operandi was better suited to another occasion ...

[Cariad]

There is a subtle difference between 'no forensics' and 'inconclusive forensics'.

However, there is no evidence of anything else that would stand up in court.

Yes, I'd be much happier if the people remembered that there was forensic evidence, we just don't know of whom or what.

[Mr Gray]

Yes, I'd be much happier if the people remembered that there was forensic evidence, we just don't know of whom or what.

So the recovered forensics were basically useless

[Cariad]

So the recovered forensics were basically useless

Yes, but they were recovered in spots alerted to, indicating that the alerts were correct, at least for blood. Who's blood or when it was deposited is beyond the dog's remit.

[Anna]

Forensic....some of

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic10-10.html

[Cariad]

I agree with most of that, Cariad. However, I think that there is another possibility. A subset of A, possibly.

In operation, as opposed to research blind tests, the handler would presumably be aware of the search area in question and may - or may not - be already aware of why the canine team is being asked to search in a particular area.

A dog may pick up inadvertent cues from the handler and concentrate to the point where some of the substances it's trained to react to are present, even if not in totality. I or someone else pointed out that such dogs can react in areas with peat bogs (I think, from memory), as some of the compounds would naturally be present. The dogs aren't necessarily wrong, but it's the human interpretation of alerts that can be mistaken (as well as possible mistakes from the dogs themselves).

As with any aspect of a case, innocent explanations should be ruled out.

ETA Both by forensic evidence as, after all, that is what is being sought, and by ruling out irrelevant/innocent other reasons for alerts or any forensic evidence that may be found.

Yes, certainly a possibility.

It's probably worth bearing in mind how little info we have too. As far as I can find, the Handler has never talked about the case. What there is is a mention in a news article, attributed to someone working for the author of a book claiming innocence on behalf of Thomas Quick.

It's not quite the same as the information we have on Eddie and Keela.

[stephen25000]

I happen to believe that Grime's modus operandi was better suited to another occasion ...

...and we know why you are saying that.

[Estuarine]

For General Interest Only

2003 Matthew Zarella’s Mission to Vietnam.
<<<Snip>>>
They will be searching 16 sites in nine provinces, mostly ground-losses.
This operation should allow JTF-FA and CILHI to determine the feasibility and effectiveness of using K-9 searchers to assist with the location and recovery of the remains of missing servicemen not only from the Vietnam Conflict, but also
MIA’s from WW2 and the Korean War.
Properly trained and utilized, these specialty canine teams provide an additional resource in the never-ending efforts to locate human remains.
 
<<<Snip>>>

If the dog alerted, Zarrella reported it to the team and anthropologists dug test pits. Soon he discovered the test pits needed to be expanded.

"The way they were going about it was wrong,'' he said. "The dog alerts to the strongest odor. A lot of times the scent accumulates down-slope from the body or downstream from the body. The dog doesn't always alert at the grave source. They dug in the areas where the dogs alerted, but they weren't finding anything. They finally learned that they had to dig a larger area. It's possible the bones are gone, but the scent remained in the soil for years. They decided to leave the bigger digs for the R&E [Recovery and Excavation] teams. So we flagged and mapped those areas.
<<<Snip>>>

[Cariad]

For General Interest Only

2003 Matthew Zarella’s Mission to Vietnam.
<<<Snip>>>
They will be searching 16 sites in nine provinces, mostly ground-losses.
This operation should allow JTF-FA and CILHI to determine the feasibility and effectiveness of using K-9 searchers to assist with the location and recovery of the remains of missing servicemen not only from the Vietnam Conflict, but also
MIA’s from WW2 and the Korean War.
Properly trained and utilized, these specialty canine teams provide an additional resource in the never-ending efforts to locate human remains.
 
<<<Snip>>>

If the dog alerted, Zarrella reported it to the team and anthropologists dug test pits. Soon he discovered the test pits needed to be expanded.

"The way they were going about it was wrong,'' he said. "The dog alerts to the strongest odor. A lot of times the scent accumulates down-slope from the body or downstream from the body. The dog doesn't always alert at the grave source. They dug in the areas where the dogs alerted, but they weren't finding anything. They finally learned that they had to dig a larger area. It's possible the bones are gone, but the scent remained in the soil for years. They decided to leave the bigger digs for the R&E [Recovery and Excavation] teams. So we flagged and mapped those areas.
<<<Snip>>>

Apropos of nothing, did you know that the Russian - Swedish war took place from 1808 till 1809 and that Zampo alerted to 2000 year old remains in an archaeological dig?

[Mr Gray]

For General Interest Only

2003 Matthew Zarella’s Mission to Vietnam.
<<<Snip>>>
They will be searching 16 sites in nine provinces, mostly ground-losses.
This operation should allow JTF-FA and CILHI to determine the feasibility and effectiveness of using K-9 searchers to assist with the location and recovery of the remains of missing servicemen not only from the Vietnam Conflict, but also
MIA’s from WW2 and the Korean War.
Properly trained and utilized, these specialty canine teams provide an additional resource in the never-ending efforts to locate human remains.
 
<<<Snip>>>

If the dog alerted, Zarrella reported it to the team and anthropologists dug test pits. Soon he discovered the test pits needed to be expanded.

"The way they were going about it was wrong,'' he said. "The dog alerts to the strongest odor. A lot of times the scent accumulates down-slope from the body or downstream from the body. The dog doesn't always alert at the grave source. They dug in the areas where the dogs alerted, but they weren't finding anything. They finally learned that they had to dig a larger area. It's possible the bones are gone, but the scent remained in the soil for years. They decided to leave the bigger digs for the R&E [Recovery and Excavation] teams. So we flagged and mapped those areas.
<<<Snip>>>

  Grime has explained exactly what the alerts signify in PDL...I'ts all in the files

[Estuarine]

  Grime has explained exactly what the alerts signify in PDL...I'ts all in the files

As stated at the top this post was for general interest only with respect to EVRDs.
What has Grime to do with it?
Was he part of the 2003 JTA Mission to South East Asia?

[gilet]

As stated at the top this post was for general interest only with respect to EVRDs.
What has Grime to do with it?
Was he part of the 2003 JTA Mission to South East Asia?

Could there be a more ridiculous question on this thread?

Grime's dogs are held up by some as the ELITE of EVRD work, they certainly were among the very few EVRD dogs available in the UK at one time. If I am not mistaken they were, for example, the only ones considered for the Jersey searches and the only ones recommended by Harrison for PDL (complete with a breakdown of fees which Harrison just happened to know.).

To attempt to claim that a thread discussing the reliability of EVRD and Forensic Search Dogs in a section of the forum devoted entirely to the subject of the McCann case is to put it appropriately, "barking mad".

[pegasus]

L=21.2
I>=2.5 (source : CSST)
R=L+I
Solve for R.
K9 = always truthful, maths = always correct, re-consider assumptions, JIMO.