Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[slartibartfast]

It's not the most logical conclusion because there is no supporting evidence of a dead body and  because we know for a fact that dogs can make mistakes.

Which bit of most do you not understand.

[icabodcrane]

Only in your opinion.....there are other factors that you are not taking into account...SY certainly do not agree with you

That's not true

Scotland Yard have stated that they believe Madeleine may have died in the apartment

[Alfred R Jones]

Which bit of most do you not understand.

I understand every bit of most, I don't understand why you would need to ask me that though.

[Benice]

Are you having a laugh? Keela has to get in really close with her nose to alert to blood. Do you want Eddie's nose to be on the floor and walls of every inch of all apartments - man he would be in there for days and weeks doing one apartment  8-)(--) Cadaver scent is different that's why he was chasing it in the underground car park and his behaviour changed as soon as got to 5A.

Are you claiming that Eddie was not trained to alert to the odour of blood from a living person?   Surely not.

Eddie wouldn't know what he was alerting to.  All he knew was that if he recognised certain odours - he had to bark.   Martin Grime didn't know which scent Eddie was alerting to either - which is why he sent Keela in afterwards and if she alerted at the same place as Eddie he assumed a blood detection.   If she didn't - he assumed cadaverscent.

That was proved with the key fob to which both dogs had alerted - and on which forensic testing then found Gerry's DNA.

So I ask again - why didn't Eddie alert to the blood which must have been deposited in one or more of the other apartments or cars over the years?

[pathfinder73]

Are you claiming that Eddie was not trained to alert to the odour of blood from a living person?   Surely not.

Eddie wouldn't know what he was alerting to.  All he knew was that if he recognised certain odours - he had to bark.   Martin Grime didn't know which scent Eddie was alerting to either - which is why he sent Keela in afterwards and if she alerted at the same place as Eddie he assumed a blood detection.   If she didn't - he assumed cadaverscent.

That was proved with the key fob to which both dogs had alerted - and on which forensic testing then found Gerry's DNA.

So I ask again - why didn't Eddie alert to the blood which must have been deposited in one or more of the other apartments or cars over the years?

Why have you edited my post? That's why Keela is brought in next at the bark alert locations to see if there's blood. Eddie is trained to find cadaver - his behaviour didn't change for blood specs - for that dogs need to get their nose in very close to alert. That's why he didn't alert in other apartments because he didn't have his nose pinned to the floor of every inch of every apartment. 

[Benice]

Why have you edited my post? That's why Keela is brought in next at the bark alert locations to see if there's blood. Eddie is trained to find cadaver - his behaviour didn't change for blood specs - for that dogs need to get their nose in very close to alert. That's why he didn't alert in other apartments because he didn't have his nose pinned to the floor of every inch of every apartment.  Otherwise Eddie would've been sniffing the wall straight away where lots of blood specs were.

I didn't edit your post.   I just pressed the 'quote' button as normal.  (I truly don't know what happened there)

With respect  - I think you need to read up on what Martin Grime tells us about his dogs - especially about them BOTH alerting to blood from living people.   The only blood they would not alert to was 'wet' blood,   

In the meantime if you believe Eddie only detects cadaverscent - then can you explain why is it that when Eddie does not alert at all in a place  -  Grime knows that he doesn't need to send Keela in after him?     Could it be that Grime knew that if any blood was present Eddie who was also trained to detect blood would have alerted?

[pathfinder73]

I didn't edit your post.   I just pressed the 'quote' button as normal.  (I truly don't know what happened there)

With respect  - I think you need to read up on what Martin Grime tells us about his dogs - especially about them BOTH alerting to blood from living people.   The only blood they would not alert to was 'wet' blood,   

In the meantime if you believe Eddie only detects cadaverscent - then can you explain why is it that when Eddie does not alert at all in a place  -  Grime knows that he doesn't need to send Keela in after him?     Could it be that Grime knew that if any blood was present Eddie who was also trained to detect blood would have alerted?

Grime knows why his behaviour changed as soon as he got to 5A. Maybe one day you'll hear it.

[Lace]

Quote by pathfinder73 - 
Why have you edited my post? That's why Keela is brought in next at the bark alert locations to see if there's blood. Eddie is trained to find cadaver - his behaviour didn't change for blood specs - for that dogs need to get their nose in very close to alert. That's why he didn't alert in other apartments because he didn't have his nose pinned to the floor of every inch of every apartment.  Otherwise Eddie would've been sniffing the wall straight away where lots of blood specs were.



I find that post very misleading pathfinder73,   especially with the photo of 5a.

There was NO blood specs on the wall of 5a.

[Mr Gray]

That's not true

Scotland Yard have stated that they believe Madeleine may have died in the apartment

SY have not said...

"the most obvious and logical conclusion to draw is that the missing child died in the apartment"

That's is what I said is your opinion

[Benice]

Grime knows why his behaviour changed as soon as he got to 5A. Maybe one day you'll hear it.

That really has nothing to do with the points I have queried with you. 

Just for the record - do you accept that Eddie also alerted to blood and that is why, if Eddie made no alerts at all,  Grime knew there was no need for him to send Keela in - as Eddie's non-alert indicated that neither cadaverscent nor blood was present?

To go back to my original point.  IMO if Eddie had been given longer to check over the other apartments and cars - then more alerts would have been forthcoming - as IMO it is not feasible that during decades of human traffic going through them (in the case of the apartments) - no blood had ever been shed. 

[Mr Gray]

You are moving the goalposts aren't you   ?

We have determined that it is entirely possible that the cadaver dog barked in apartment 5A because he picked up the scent of the dead body of the child who was reported missing from there

That  fact  is relevant to the thread subject

Having established fact  "A"  (  that, in this case,   the cadaver dog's alert may,  indeed,  be reliable  )   you move on to fact  "B"    ( in what manner might the child have died in the apartment  )  ...   which is not relevant to the thread title at all 

Changing the parameters of the question is an indication that your original proposition is a weak one

what is established is that the cadaver dog MAY be reliable....point B makes the point that it may not be reliable

so we have established that the cadaver dog may or may not be reliable

[Mr Gray]

Grime knows why his behaviour changed as soon as he got to 5A. Maybe one day you'll hear it.

We have already heard from Grime and he has NOT confirmed the alerts....what does that tell you

[Alfred R Jones]

The question we have been discussing is whether or not the cadaver dog's alert in apartment 5A was  a reliable indication that the child who was reported missing had died there

You are  'moving the goalposts'  by asking that I answer a question that the thread subject does not pose

You could always start another thread asking how   Madeleine might have died in the apartment,  but it is not relevant to the question of whether the cadaver dog's alerts were  reliable

The question posed by this thread was answered a long time ago.  When I brought up the subject of Zampo as an example of a EVRD whose alerts were NOT reliable I was told off for talking about a dog that was not part of the McCann investigation, however it's obvious that my mentioning him was VERY pertinent to the non-case specific question being posed.  If  one is just going to assume that Eddie and Keela are somehow superior to all other EVRD dogs and completely incapable of falsely alerting at any time or for any reason then we have to look at the set of circumstances most likely to fit in with those alerts.  Why you should be reluctant to do so beat me.

[icabodcrane]

The question posed by this thread was answered a long time ago.  When I brought up the subject of Zampo as an example of a EVRD whose alerts were NOT reliable I was told off for talking about a dog that was not part of the McCann investigation, however it's obvious that my mentioning him was VERY pertinent to the non-case specific question being posed.  If  one is just going to assume that Eddie and Keela are somehow superior to all other EVRD dogs and completely incapable of falsely alerting at any time or for any reason then we have to look at the set of circumstances most likely to fit in with those alerts.  Why you should be reluctant to do so beat me.

Your argument is  based on a false analogy   ...  'a dog in another case was wrong,  therefore it is necessary to assume the dog in this  may have been wrong'

We do not  have  to look at the set of circumstances most likely to  'fit'  in with the cadaver dog's alerts

The dog's alerts are a  factual piece of evidence and what those alerts indicated will not be proven  (  or disproven )  by the imaginery scenarios you are presenting and asking others to comment on

[Mr Gray]

Your argument is  based on a false analogy   ...  'a dog in another case was wrong,  therefore it is necessary to assume the dog in this  may have been wrong'

We do not  have  to look at the set of circumstances most likely to  'fit'  in with the cadaver dog's alerts

The dog's alerts are a  factual piece of evidence and what those alerts indicated will not be proven  (  or disproven )  by the imaginery scenarios you are presenting and asking others to comment on

Even after all this time you still don't understand the alerts. They are NOT evidence...and we have been told by grime what they indicate and they may be as a result of several scenarios