Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Mr Gray]

I see the dogs are being brought in for a second time

I guess the police must have faith in their abilities

Im sure the police have absolute faith in the dogs abilities..as do I. Unfortunately many posters here dont understand what those abilities are

[ferryman]

Im sure the police have absolute faith in the dogs abilities..as do I. Unfortunately many posters here dont understand what those abilities are

The key is, not so much the dog (so long as the dog has been well trained) but the handler.

Another pointer: if more than one dog is deployed this time around, I bet there will be one handler for each dog; not one handler handling two dogs ...

[jassi]

I would have thought the key thing was whether forensics can confirm an alert.

[Mr Gray]

I would have thought the key thing was whether forensics can confirm an alert.

Of course ...but some posters want to make inference without forensics....thats whete they go wrong

[sadie]

Im sure the police have absolute faith in the dogs abilities..as do I. Unfortunately many posters here dont understand what those abilities are

Exactly.

Undoubtedly they are able to spot scents and mark them.  Trouble is that they mark a number of other sources of odours and forensics are needed to sort out exactly what they are alerting to.  Forensics are not only needed to find out what they are alerting to (semen, spit, cadavar odour etc) but also to whom these gases from alertes should be attributed.


NOTHING was found that attributed any of the alerts to Madeleine or Gerry  NOTHING!

Just why are you peeps banging on about it ?



I repeat:

NOTHING was found connecting Madeleine or Gerry to ANY ALERTS

[icabodcrane]

I know that some members have researched the subject thoroughly and I have a question they might be able to answer

Assuming, for argument sake, that a dead body  had been in apartment 5A  long enough for cadaver odour to have been present, and assuming that is what the cadaver dog alerted to ...  would that residual scent still be detectable after all this time   ?

We know cadaver dogs are being brought back to PDL,  and my question is,  if they were taken to apartment 5A is it possibile that they could still pick up that scent ?

I'm guessing they probably couldn't,  given that the body itself would be long gone  ...   but does anyone know for sure  ?   

[gilet]

I know that some members have researched the subject thoroughly and I have a question they might be able to answer

Assuming, for argument sake, that a dead body  had been in apartment 5A  long enough for cadaver odour to have been present, and assuming that is what the cadaver dog alerted to ...  would that residual scent still be detectable after all this time   ?

We know cadaver dogs are being brought back to PDL,  and my question is,  if they were taken to apartment 5A is it possibile that they could still pick up that scent ?

I'm guessing they probably couldn't,  given that the body itself would be long gone  ...   but does anyone know for sure  ?

There is a major problem in answering this question. That is that, no matter how much faith some people like to put in the abilities of the dogs, there has been very, very little actual scientific research done on the subject.

Of course the dogs have detection abilities which are way beyond those of humans and which are used by police and other agencies all the time. This has been recognised for millenia in the way that dogs have been used in hunting and other activities. More intensive training has led to much more specific uses for those canine abilities.

But the problem comes with scientific research into the reliability of the dogs alerts when there is no clear object on which the dogs are focusing. Could an alert by a drugs dog be sufficient to convict a person when no drugs are found on that person? Looking for research into that level of reliability is proving rather difficult.

As far as I can see there is no scientific study which shows with any certainty that the dogs can detect scent after a period longer than 28 days. If there is I would appreciate a link.

With regard to the easier test of whether a dog can detect actual cadaver parts after longer periods there is again very little peer-reviewed research. The one study which is often quoted is that of Jacobi at Alabamha University who concluded that some dogs could detect parts as old as 25 years or more in the ground. But he is careful to point out it very much depends on the dog concerned.

While that one study regarding dogs and actual cadavers exists there is no equivalent study which shows that cadaver scent can be detected for anything longer than 28 days. There may be anecdotal and chance evidence to confirm that this can happen but no actual research into the matter. If someone can show me otherwise please do so as I am very willing to learn about any such research conducted under scientific rules.

[gilet]

This is all yesterdays fish and chip wrappers.
New searches new cops new K9s and new handlers or had you not noticed?

I have noticed that SY and the PJ are involved with new dogs, but your attempt to claim that this is all old hat is rather naive as the details regarding the old dogs were being "enhanced" here only a few weeks ago by the forum member who is so knowledgeable about their work.

And of course, we are all waiting for the long-promised photographs which seem to be taking forever to appear and the direct contribution from Martin Grime himself which is keenly anticipated by members here. So the old dogs and their handler are very much not "all yesterdays fish and chip wrappers" at least on this forum.

More news about the old dogs and their handler will appear here soon I am led to believe.

[icabodcrane]

Thanks for that considered reply gilet

Do you think,  perhaps,  a different cadaver dog,  and a different handler,  will be taken to apartment 5A  during this latest activity  ?

I mean the dogs will be there in PDL anyway and the police might think it's worth a try, even if it's a long shot

[Mr Gray]

I know that some members have researched the subject thoroughly and I have a question they might be able to answer

Assuming, for argument sake, that a dead body  had been in apartment 5A  long enough for cadaver odour to have been present, and assuming that is what the cadaver dog alerted to ...  would that residual scent still be detectable after all this time   ?

We know cadaver dogs are being brought back to PDL,  and my question is,  if they were taken to apartment 5A is it possibile that they could still pick up that scent ?

I'm guessing they probably couldn't,  given that the body itself would be long gone  ...   but does anyone know for sure  ?

I suspect no one on this forum knows for sure mainly because residual scant is not well researched science. if you look at dna or fingerprints you will find hundreds of thousands of scientific articles but almost nothing on residual scent. one article I read on line suggested a time limit of one year in a closed undisturbed room so on that basis the answer would be no...but again an alert does not signify the previous presence of a cadaver

[gilet]

Thanks for that considered reply gilet

Do you think,  perhaps,  a different cadaver dog,  and a different handler,  will be taken to apartment 5A  during this latest activity  ?

I mean the dogs will be there in PDL anyway and the police might think it's worth a try, even if it's a long shot

It is possible but I think that the chances of detecting any cadaver odour after so many years without the presence of any body are likely to be almost zero or actually zero. 

The scent pooling which Grime referred to very briefly in the video would have been affected by all kinds of movements in the apartment - draughts in particular and no proper scent pool or cone would remain. Intermittent draughts from different directions would almost certainly have broken up any remaining pool.

If there had been a cadaver in the apartment at some time in the past then that would have created a stronger scent pool than if the original source had been a contaminated garment for example but the simple answer is that nobody knows if it is possible or not to find any scent. Any reaction by a dog now would once again be completely uncorroborated by forensics so would have little value anyway as no handler can ever be certain that his dog has found anything relevant unless there is such forensic corroboration.

[John]

The four alerts by EVRD Eddie may yet turn out to be indicative of what the crime was in this case.  There is no getting away from it that Eddie certainly detected something suspicious in 5a which he failed to find in any other apartment or in the rented villa.  Given what I am being told by the experts I am not at all surprised Gonçalo Amaral and English police officers on the ground came to the conclusions they did.

I have not had an opportunity to pursue the new photos recently but they will be posted when I receive them.  I have passed the questions about Eddie and Keela on to Martin and I will post them together with his response when I receive it.

Condescending posts will be removed on sight.

[sadie]

The four alerts by EVRD Eddie may yet turn out to be indicative of what the crime was in this case.  There is no getting away from it that Eddie certainly detected something suspicious in 5a which he failed to find in any other apartment or in the rented villa.  Given what I am being told by the experts I am not at all surprised Gonçalo Amaral and English police officers on the ground came to the conclusions they did.

I have not had an opportunity to pursue the new photos recently but they will be posted when I receive them.  I have passed the questions about Eddie and Keela on to Martin and I will post them together with his response when I receive it.

Condescending posts will be removed on sight.

Yep, he was whipped through the other appartments wasn't he?

[John]

Some members have asked about the forensic corroboration in the case.  You might like to know that the latest is that samples are being retested in line with modern techniques.

[John]

Yep, he was whipped through the other appartments wasn't he?

Whipped?  There was no reaction from the dog when he entered the other apartments Sadie, what would you have wanted him to do exactly?