Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Carana]

The four alerts by EVRD Eddie may yet turn out to be indicative of what the crime was in this case.  There is no getting away from it that Eddie certainly detected something suspicious in 5a which he failed to find in any other apartment or in the rented villa.  Given what I am being told by the experts I am not at all surprised Gonçalo Amaral and English police officers on the ground came to the conclusions they did.

I have not had an opportunity to pursue the new photos recently but they will be posted when I receive them.  I have passed the questions about Eddie and Keela on to Martin and I will post them together with his response when I receive it.

Condescending posts will be removed on sight.

What have you been told by which experts?

[jassi]

Some members have asked about the forensic corroboration in the case.  You might like to know that the latest is that samples are being retested in line with modern techniques.

Good to hear that. I thought everything had been discarded.

[Carana]

Some members have asked about the forensic corroboration in the case.  You might like to know that the latest is that samples are being retested in line with modern techniques.

Samples of what? From where? And where are they being tested? On whose authority?

Have they found the missing hairs from the bed yet?

[jassi]

Samples of what? From where? And where are they being tested? On whose authority?

Have they found the missing hairs from the bed yet?

Don't stress yourself. I'm sure we'll get to know in time

[icabodcrane]

Samples of what? From where? And where are they being tested? On whose authority?

Have they found the missing hairs from the bed yet?

On the authority of the investigating police forces I would presume

Anyway, it's good news isn't it ? 

The more thorough the investigation the better

[jassi]

On the authority of the investigating police forces I would presume

Anyway, it's good news isn't it ? 

The more thorough the investigation the better

Sounds good to me. Can't imagine that anyone could think otherwise.

[John]

The belief that a cadaver has to lie in situ for hours before it can be detected by victim recovery dogs is false since any material contaminated by a cadaver will return the same result.

If for example clothing, a blanket or a soft toy came into contact with a cadaver some hours after death and then those objects were moved to another location then the dogs would react at that new location.  What the dogs cannot tell us is whether they are detecting the cadaver or contaminant from the cadaver.

[ferryman]

The belief that a cadaver has to lie in situ for hours before it can be detected by victim recovery dogs is false since any material contaminated by a cadaver will return the same result.

If for example clothing, a blanket or a soft toy came into contact with a cadaver some hours after death and then those objects were moved to another location then the dogs would react at that new location.  What the dogs cannot tell us is whether they are detecting the cadaver or contaminant from the cadaver.

There is nothing false about a post mortem interval; some dispute about  the time of the PMI ..

[Victoria]

There is a major problem in answering this question. That is that, no matter how much faith some people like to put in the abilities of the dogs, there has been very, very little actual scientific research done on the subject.

Of course the dogs have detection abilities which are way beyond those of humans and which are used by police and other agencies all the time. This has been recognised for millenia in the way that dogs have been used in hunting and other activities. More intensive training has led to much more specific uses for those canine abilities.

But the problem comes with scientific research into the reliability of the dogs alerts when there is no clear object on which the dogs are focusing. Could an alert by a drugs dog be sufficient to convict a person when no drugs are found on that person? Looking for research into that level of reliability is proving rather difficult.

As far as I can see there is no scientific study which shows with any certainty that the dogs can detect scent after a period longer than 28 days. If there is I would appreciate a link.

With regard to the easier test of whether a dog can detect actual cadaver parts after longer periods there is again very little peer-reviewed research. The one study which is often quoted is that of Jacobi at Alabamha University who concluded that some dogs could detect parts as old as 25 years or more in the ground. But he is careful to point out it very much depends on the dog concerned.

While that one study regarding dogs and actual cadavers exists there is no equivalent study which shows that cadaver scent can be detected for anything longer than 28 days. There may be anecdotal and chance evidence to confirm that this can happen but no actual research into the matter. If someone can show me otherwise please do so as I am very willing to learn about any such research conducted under scientific rules.

Really well informed and useful post on this issue, which is a rarity. Thank you.

[gilet]

What have you been told by which experts?

Excellent questions Carana.

I could tell you that experts with clear inside knowledge of the case inform me that preparations are currently underway to bring a particular individual in the case to court within a short period of time. But I won't as there is no way I would be able to provide evidence for that claim at the moment. Indeed I might simply be regarded as WUM trying to curry favour with other posters.

[icabodcrane]

Don't you think it would he a  good thing for any samples to be re-tested, using improved techniques  ?

If the police are taking this very sensible step, then surely we must all welcome it 

I don't understand why you are being so combative about what is potentially excellent news

[jassi]

Excellent questions Carana.

I could tell you that experts with clear inside knowledge of the case inform me that preparations are currently underway to bring a particular individual in the case to court within a short period of time. But I won't as there is no way I would be able to provide evidence for that claim at the moment. Indeed I might simply be regarded as WUM trying to curry favour with other posters.

But you just hav done     

[jassi]

Don't you think it would he a  good thing for any samples to be re-tested, using improved techniques  ?

If the police are taking this very sensible step, then surely we must all welcome it 

I don't understand why you are being so combative about what is potentially excellent news

Nor can I, unless  . . . . there is a fear that something incriminating might emerge.

[gilet]

I suppose time will tell if new forensic findings are forthcoming.

Not necessarily for two separate reasons.

Firstly there may be no such tests.

And secondly, if any such tests have been ordered by SY and prove not to be of any value in any subsequent court case then there will never be any reason to release any details about them to the public. Only if the PJ have ordered them would they possibly come to light as they have in this particular case and only this one, disgracefully in my opinion, released the bulk of the case files, in such a way that even they even included personal details of witnesses, before the case has ever been resolved. No doubt they might do the same again though one would hope they have learnt the lesson of that gross error of judgement and will revert to the normal policy of more restricted access to the full details.

[jassi]

Not necessarily for two separate reasons.

Firstly there may be no such tests.

And secondly, if any such tests have been ordered by SY and prove not to be of any value in any subsequent court case then there will never be any reason to release any details about them to the public. Only if the PJ have ordered them would they possibly come to light as they have in this particular case and only this one, disgracefully in my opinion, released the bulk of the case files, in such a way that even they even included personal details of witnesses, before the case has ever been resolved. No doubt they might do the same again though one would hope they have learnt the lesson of that gross error of judgement and will revert to the normal policy of more restricted access to the full details.

Clearly you didn't read what I wrote.  "I suppose time will tell if new forensic findings are forthcoming."
I wasn't commenting on what any forensics might reveal.