Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 355068 times)

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Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1275 on: October 30, 2014, 05:39:50 PM »
CADAVERINE


http://www.everything2.com/title/Cadaverine

Cadaverine is a very intersting and useful chemical. It is C5H13N2 and looks like this: H2N/\/\/NH2. It is closely related to putrescine, spermine, and spermidine. It is called cadaverine because is comes from human corpses and is one of the chemicals that causes that awful odor.

1)  Cadaverine also contributes to the odors of urine and semen.

2)  Cadaverine is found in some plants in trace amounts as a result of stress on the plant.

3)  It is sold in some hunting supply stores as a poisonous liquid that attracts scavengers.

4)  It is also used as a tool for training search and rescue dogs.




Cadaverine is a completely unwholesome substance. Do NOT get it on anything you are going to keep, especially yourself. It DOES NOT wash off. It will be with you until your skin washes away. If you get it in someone's car (say in their heating system or injected into the rubber of their door windows) they will be forced to scrap the car. This is just one of the many uses of cadaverine! Most of cadaverine's uses, however, are to make things smell really really bad, so I won't explain any more here.

I'm sure you'll be able to figure out some uses for it yourself.



 I like it! 

(thing) by x1cygnus  Fri Nov 08 2002 at 21:54:50

C5H14N2 or cadaverine is also known as animal coniine, cadaverin, cadaverine or 1,5-pentamethylenediamine. It's a foul smelling amine derived from the amino acid lysine by decarboxylation catalysed by lysine decarboxylase. It is naturally present in decaying corpses, the roots of some plants and, strangely enough, in the flowers of the asclepiadaceae Hoodia gordonii which of course smell like garbage. More boring information follows:


Density: 0.87
Melting point: 9 °C
Boiling point: 178-180 °C
Molecular weight: 102.18 g/mol
Appearance: colorless, syrupy liquid
Soluble in water, alcohol; slightly soluble in ether

       /----\
NH2 --/      \-- NH2



Of course, the most interesting part is the synthesis of cadaverine. Well, unless you order it or its precursors directly from a chemistry lab, you won't be going very far.

You can produce cadaverine (as well as putrescine, spermidine and histamine) by letting fish such as tuna or swordfish decay.

Something more elegant would consist in soaking the flowers of Hoodia gordonii in alcohol.



 I like it! 1 C!

(definition) by Webster 1913  Sun Nov 27 2005 at 9:11:33

Ca*dav"er*ine (?), n. Also - in . [From Cadaver.] (Chem.)

A sirupy, nontoxic ptomaine, C5H14N2 (chemically pentamethylene diamine), formed in putrefaction of flesh, etc.



Could it be that someone synthesized cadavarine or bought it from a hunting supply stores ... and added it to the outside of the door of the Mccann hire car.



Dunno

But I repeat, I do not understand how the scent penetrated a metal door with its rubber/plastic seal.



Any ideas?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1276 on: October 30, 2014, 05:46:49 PM »
CADAVERINE


http://www.everything2.com/title/Cadaverine

Cadaverine is a very intersting and useful chemical. It is C5H13N2 and looks like this: H2N/\/\/NH2. It is closely related to putrescine, spermine, and spermidine. It is called cadaverine because is comes from human corpses and is one of the chemicals that causes that awful odor.

1)  Cadaverine also contributes to the odors of urine and semen.

2)  Cadaverine is found in some plants in trace amounts as a result of stress on the plant.

3)  It is sold in some hunting supply stores as a poisonous liquid that attracts scavengers.

4)  It is also used as a tool for training search and rescue dogs.




Cadaverine is a completely unwholesome substance. Do NOT get it on anything you are going to keep, especially yourself. It DOES NOT wash off. It will be with you until your skin washes away. If you get it in someone's car (say in their heating system or injected into the rubber of their door windows) they will be forced to scrap the car. This is just one of the many uses of cadaverine! Most of cadaverine's uses, however, are to make things smell really really bad, so I won't explain any more here.

I'm sure you'll be able to figure out some uses for it yourself.



 I like it! 

(thing) by x1cygnus  Fri Nov 08 2002 at 21:54:50

C5H14N2 or cadaverine is also known as animal coniine, cadaverin, cadaverine or 1,5-pentamethylenediamine. It's a foul smelling amine derived from the amino acid lysine by decarboxylation catalysed by lysine decarboxylase. It is naturally present in decaying corpses, the roots of some plants and, strangely enough, in the flowers of the asclepiadaceae Hoodia gordonii which of course smell like garbage. More boring information follows:


Density: 0.87
Melting point: 9 °C
Boiling point: 178-180 °C
Molecular weight: 102.18 g/mol
Appearance: colorless, syrupy liquid
Soluble in water, alcohol; slightly soluble in ether

       /----\
NH2 --/      \-- NH2



Of course, the most interesting part is the synthesis of cadaverine. Well, unless you order it or its precursors directly from a chemistry lab, you won't be going very far.

You can produce cadaverine (as well as putrescine, spermidine and histamine) by letting fish such as tuna or swordfish decay.

Something more elegant would consist in soaking the flowers of Hoodia gordonii in alcohol.



 I like it! 1 C!

(definition) by Webster 1913  Sun Nov 27 2005 at 9:11:33

Ca*dav"er*ine (?), n. Also - in . [From Cadaver.] (Chem.)

A sirupy, nontoxic ptomaine, C5H14N2 (chemically pentamethylene diamine), formed in putrefaction of flesh, etc.



Could it be that someone synthesized cadavarine or bought it from a hunting supply stores ... and added it to the outside of the door of the Mccann hire car.



Dunno

But I repeat, I do not understand how the scent penetrated a metal door with its rubber/plastic seal.



Any ideas?

Interesting that you use a quote that include injecting in car door window rubber. I assume if it wasn't injected all the way through it wouldn't have an effect on the occupants according to your theory.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1277 on: October 30, 2014, 06:07:04 PM »
I accept your criticism Slarti, but when a syringe is filled with a liquid, it is immersed in the liquid so remnants are covering the outside of the needle.  This wipes off on to the sustance being inje=cted.

Also when the needle is withdrawn very often a small bead of the fluid emerges from the hole that the needle entered.


I inject daily, twice.  I have to leave the needle in situ for 20 seconds to prevent this happening ... and of course my blood stream assimilates it into my body.  No bloodstream in a rubber /plastic seal .... is there?

Some of the liquid would almost certainly ooze out of a dense flexible substance, such as a car door seal



Incidentally
Are you saying that someone perchance injected it into the door seal?



Gotta go now

Party!   

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1278 on: October 30, 2014, 07:05:27 PM »
Sadie read and learn!

Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Carana

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1279 on: October 31, 2014, 01:12:17 PM »
Sadie read and learn!

Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

Could you provide a cite for the underlined bit, please?

As we're only allowed a one-level quote system, I'll copy it here:

You said:
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 01:14:22 PM by Carana »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1280 on: November 01, 2014, 09:10:33 AM »
Vol. IX p. 2480

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.

"A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically its nose is super sensitive. It's also about getting the dog to really focus on a task."

Portuguese police turned down offer of dog help, 23 May 2007
    

Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.

On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable, 30 December 2005
    
On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable Timesonline
 
By Karen McVeigh
December 30, 2005
 
HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing.
 
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable.
 
Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses.
 
Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963.
 
Keela's considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.
 
She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife.
 
PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."
 
The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed.
 
When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
 
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."
 
While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.
 
Mr Ellis said Keela's "perfect temperament" and enthusiasm made her a great asset. "We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it's quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable."
 
Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: "Keela's training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often."
 
Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
 
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.
 
ANIMAL MAGIC
 
£200,000 DOG
 
Keela crime scene investigation dog, South Yorkshire Police
 
Pay none. Charges £530 a day plus expenses for services. Earned almost £200,000 last year
 
Career joined South Yorkshire Police in 2003 at 12 weeks. Came originally from West Midlands Police, from a large litter. Period of training lasted a few months
 
Hobbies chasing her tail and eating
 
£129,000 MAN
 
Meredydd Hughes, Chief Constable of South Yorkshire
 
Pay £129,963 a year
 
Career joined North Wales Constabulary, 1979. Promoted to Superintendent in West Yorkshire Police in 1995 and Assistant Chief Constable in Greater Manchester, 1999
 
Hobbies rock climbing, mountainbiking and mountaineering

Madeleine: McCanns consult American lawyers over 'cadaver dog' evidence, 16 September 2007
    
Madeleine: McCanns consult American lawyers over 'cadaver dog' evidence Daily Mail
 
Last updated at 18:07 16 September 2007
 
Kate and Gerry McCann's legal team have consulted the lawyers of an American man accused of murdering his estranged wife in a case where cadaver dog evidence was key, a source said today.
 
Two British sniffer dogs, one capable of detecting blood and human remains, were brought to Portugal in early August.
 
The cadaver dog picked up a "scent of death" on everything from Mrs McCann's clothes to missing Madeleine's favourite soft toy Cuddle Cat, according to reports.
 
During police interviews the McCanns were shown a video of the animal "going crazy" when it approached their Renault Scenic hire car, newspapers have claimed.
 
Leaked reports from the investigation have suggested Madeleine's parents could have accidentally killed her and then disposed of her body using the car.
 
Although they do not know the full details of Portuguese prosecutors' case against them, the McCanns are concerned it may rest on the dog's reaction.
 
They want to highlight the judge's dismissal of cadaver dog evidence in the high-profile Eugene Zapata murder trial in Madison, Wisconsin.
 
The couple's lawyers have already contacted Zapata's defence team, who are now sending their large file on the matter to Britain.
 
Zapata's estranged wife, flight instructor Jeanette Zapata, was 37 when she vanished on October 11 1976 after seeing her three children off to school. Her body has never been found.
 
Detectives suspected Zapata of involvement in her disappearance but did not charge him because of a lack of evidence.
 
Police decided to conduct new searches using cadaver dogs, a new investigative technique, when an old friend of Mrs Zapata contacted them about the case in 2004.
 
Zapata, 68, was charged with first-degree murder last year after the dogs indicated they sniffed human remains in a small basement "crawl space" at the former family home in Madison and other properties linked to him.
 
But Dane County Judge Patrick Fiedler ruled last month that the evidence that led to the charge could not be put before the jury.
 
He said the dogs were too unreliable in detecting the odour of remains and noted that no remains were actually found.
 
The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.
 
According to the Wisconsin State Journal, Mr Fiedler told the court: "The state has failed to convince me that it's any more reliable than the flip of a coin." Zapata denies murder, and the jury in the case went out on Friday to start considering its verdict.
 
A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said: "The legal team are in touch with the lawyers who represented the defendant in the case.
 
"The court papers, giving the legal submissions, are on their way to the McCann team for consideration.
 
"At the moment there are no formal charges and therefore there is no formal allegation against which the McCann team can work. We are having to work a little bit in the dark.
 
"But given that we understand the central plank of what the police are alleging involves sniffer dogs - albeit British ones which are said to be particularly good - this is important and relevant, and will be raised with the police and brought to the judge's attention."
 
*
 
Note: Eugene Zapata later confessed to the crime.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 09:20:38 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1281 on: November 01, 2014, 09:52:03 AM »
Vol. IX p. 2480

EVRD

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain.

"A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically its nose is super sensitive. It's also about getting the dog to really focus on a task."

Portuguese police turned down offer of dog help, 23 May 2007
    

Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.

On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable, 30 December 2005
    
On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable Timesonline
 
By Karen McVeigh
December 30, 2005
 
HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing.
 
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable.
 
Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses.
 
Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963.
 
Keela's considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.
 
She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife.
 
PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."
 
The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed.
 
When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
 
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."
 
While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.
 
Mr Ellis said Keela's "perfect temperament" and enthusiasm made her a great asset. "We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it's quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable."
 
Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: "Keela's training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often."
 
Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
 
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.
 
ANIMAL MAGIC
 
£200,000 DOG
 
Keela crime scene investigation dog, South Yorkshire Police
 
Pay none. Charges £530 a day plus expenses for services. Earned almost £200,000 last year
 
Career joined South Yorkshire Police in 2003 at 12 weeks. Came originally from West Midlands Police, from a large litter. Period of training lasted a few months
 
Hobbies chasing her tail and eating
 
£129,000 MAN
 
Meredydd Hughes, Chief Constable of South Yorkshire
 
Pay £129,963 a year
 
Career joined North Wales Constabulary, 1979. Promoted to Superintendent in West Yorkshire Police in 1995 and Assistant Chief Constable in Greater Manchester, 1999
 
Hobbies rock climbing, mountainbiking and mountaineering

Madeleine: McCanns consult American lawyers over 'cadaver dog' evidence, 16 September 2007
    
Madeleine: McCanns consult American lawyers over 'cadaver dog' evidence Daily Mail
 
Last updated at 18:07 16 September 2007
 
Kate and Gerry McCann's legal team have consulted the lawyers of an American man accused of murdering his estranged wife in a case where cadaver dog evidence was key, a source said today.
 
Two British sniffer dogs, one capable of detecting blood and human remains, were brought to Portugal in early August.
 
The cadaver dog picked up a "scent of death" on everything from Mrs McCann's clothes to missing Madeleine's favourite soft toy Cuddle Cat, according to reports.
 
During police interviews the McCanns were shown a video of the animal "going crazy" when it approached their Renault Scenic hire car, newspapers have claimed.
 
Leaked reports from the investigation have suggested Madeleine's parents could have accidentally killed her and then disposed of her body using the car.
 
Although they do not know the full details of Portuguese prosecutors' case against them, the McCanns are concerned it may rest on the dog's reaction.
 
They want to highlight the judge's dismissal of cadaver dog evidence in the high-profile Eugene Zapata murder trial in Madison, Wisconsin.
 
The couple's lawyers have already contacted Zapata's defence team, who are now sending their large file on the matter to Britain.
 
Zapata's estranged wife, flight instructor Jeanette Zapata, was 37 when she vanished on October 11 1976 after seeing her three children off to school. Her body has never been found.
 
Detectives suspected Zapata of involvement in her disappearance but did not charge him because of a lack of evidence.
 
Police decided to conduct new searches using cadaver dogs, a new investigative technique, when an old friend of Mrs Zapata contacted them about the case in 2004.
 
Zapata, 68, was charged with first-degree murder last year after the dogs indicated they sniffed human remains in a small basement "crawl space" at the former family home in Madison and other properties linked to him.
 
But Dane County Judge Patrick Fiedler ruled last month that the evidence that led to the charge could not be put before the jury.
 
He said the dogs were too unreliable in detecting the odour of remains and noted that no remains were actually found.
 
The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.
 
According to the Wisconsin State Journal, Mr Fiedler told the court: "The state has failed to convince me that it's any more reliable than the flip of a coin." Zapata denies murder, and the jury in the case went out on Friday to start considering its verdict.
 
A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said: "The legal team are in touch with the lawyers who represented the defendant in the case.
 
"The court papers, giving the legal submissions, are on their way to the McCann team for consideration.
 
"At the moment there are no formal charges and therefore there is no formal allegation against which the McCann team can work. We are having to work a little bit in the dark.
 
"But given that we understand the central plank of what the police are alleging involves sniffer dogs - albeit British ones which are said to be particularly good - this is important and relevant, and will be raised with the police and brought to the judge's attention."
 
*
 
Note: Eugene Zapata later confessed to the crime.

I would question the correctness of this statement.

True Eddie (the EVRD dog) is trained to alert to two catagories of scents whilst Eddie is only trained for one catagory.

BUT keela is the one with the more sensitive nose.  She is sent in first to find the scents .... and pinpoints them eaxctly

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1282 on: November 01, 2014, 10:55:50 AM »

Stephen Carpenter mentions in his rogatory statement that on the night of 3rd May, he and his family crossed the road after their meal in the tapas restaurant shortly before the alarm was raised, and had to negotiate past parked vehicles …

“When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

So from that we can determine that there were vehicles parked in the vicinity of apartment 5a.

We know that the GNR dogs followed a trail from 5a to the car park before losing it. 

What seems to be missing from the files we have seen is any record of an attempt to find who had vehicles parked in the street or in the car park.

Stephen Carpenter mentions it in passing; there is no record of anyone from the tapas group being asked; no mention if Jane, Jez or Gerry noticed; no mention of anyone in the overlooking buildings being asked if they noticed any vehicles.

Not surprising when you consider Mrs Fenn who was in the apartment directly above the McCann family was not interviewed for weeks after the event.

All in all, I think the VRD are excellent.  Unfortunately without evidence their "findings" are speculation.  We can speculate about what Eddie may have barked at in the corner of the bedroom, smells from the drains of the toilet behind the wall perhaps ... without evidence to tell us, we just don't know.

Rex and Zarus followed a trail after sniffing Madeleine's blanket, we can speculate she walked the route to a car and was taken from the spot where the dogs lost the trail ... without evidence to tell us, we just don't know.

The evidence might have existed at one time - I bet NSY would be excited to DNA check the cigarette butts from the balcony overlooking the apartment - and in my opinion, an attempt at distinguishing which cars were in the immediate vicinity of a crime should have been attempted.
I don't see any evidence which suggests it was ... anyone know different?

                     :: :: ::          :: :: ::          :: :: ::          :: :: ::          :: :: ::          :: :: ::

“After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.

 Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.” http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1283 on: November 01, 2014, 11:03:48 AM »
SY know what the dogs found. That's why they're using them and doing new forensic tests. Jez, Jane and Matt saw no cars. So Carpenter saying they left at 9:30 seems to be incorrect.

If the Carpenter's left before Kate checked 3 people could be calling Madeleine - Matt, Russ or Jane. She should know if it was a male or female voice? If it was female it leads to the only one absent from the table when the alarm was raised. Then you would have to check what time crecheman said he passed there at because she was seen loitering outside at 8:30 when an sms was sent from her phone.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 01:51:56 AM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1284 on: November 14, 2014, 10:47:20 AM »
The following extract is taken from the comprehensive overview of Forensics by Dr Zakaria Erzinclioglu (Forensics - True Crime Scene Investigations: Carlton/ Sevenoaks, 2004) and illustrates perfectly clearly how those with a professional concern for the appropriate deployment of dogs in law enforcement, have a rather clearer understanding of experimental verification and how to garner evidence than do their amateur critics. And in that category I do not hesitate to include members of the Judiciary.
 
"Cloths are handed to each of the people involved in the experiment; they handle them and then place them in special jars, with each cloth in a separate jar. The jars are placed in a row in the experiment room and the dog and handler come in. The dog sniffs each jar in turn and then identifies correctly the jar with the right cloth... the jars are moved around in the absence of the dog, who returns with his handler and correctly identifies the cloth.
 
"These results are very impressive, but, to my mind, the results of the next experiment are the most impressive of all. The jar with the 'right' cloth is removed completely, leaving all the other jars, plus another to keep the number constant. What will the dog do now?
 
"As with the other experiments, the dog is led by its handler into the room. The dog sniffs each jar in turn. It is puzzled. It starts again, sniffing each jar diligently. It stops and looks up at its handler and then looks back at the jars, It then starts to whine to its owner and walks away from the jar; no doubt it feels it has failed in its task.
 
"But it has not; it has succeeded brilliantly, for the dog has not chosen a second best, a nearest odour to the one it was seeking. The smell was either present in one of the jars or it was not. It is as simple as that. The dog would not identify a false jar even to please its handler; it would rather fail than do that."
 
This author goes on to say, "I believe that the use of dog evidence in British courts would be a great step forward in the fight against crime." He concludes the chapter thus:
 
"Attempts have been made to produce a machine - an electronic nose - that can do what a dog does. These devices have been very successful in determining whether a food product, such as wine or cheese, is fresh and in a fit condition to be consumed. However, their application to criminal investigation has not yet been demonstrated. A dog is still the more reliable tool."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id260.html
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1285 on: November 14, 2014, 02:13:17 PM »
SY know what the dogs found. That's why they're using them and doing new forensic tests. Jez, Jane and Matt saw no cars. So Carpenter saying they left at 9:30 seems to be incorrect.

If the Carpenter's left before Kate checked 3 people could be calling Madeleine - Matt, Russ or Jane. She should know if it was a male or female voice? If it was female it leads to the only one absent from the table when the alarm was raised. Then you would have to check what time crecheman said he passed there at because she was seen loitering outside at 8:30 when an sms was sent from her phone.
I think they were talking about moving cars Pfinder.  Stationary cars would just be part of the wallpaper unless they were crossing the road.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1286 on: November 14, 2014, 03:27:49 PM »
No cars were seen parked on the road never mind moving past Sadie. Carpenter needs to be questioned about the time he left the tapas. Russ returned at 9:45 and he didn't say he saw any car parked near to the apartment.  And Jane can't really remember because she wasn't on a mission  @)(++(*

So me and Matt walked back to the, to the, erm, to the flats, erm, this would have been about, about kind of twenty-five past nine, I suppose.  Erm, and as we, you know, it will probably come back to, but as you asked me the other day, I didn’t certainly notice anything particularly strange or different, I didn’t see any cars parked or anyone standing around or loitering. (Russell O'Brien)

4078 "And would it have been usually to have heard traffic noise at that time of the evening?"
 
Reply "No, not really, you might get the occasional car come into that car park, but mostly the car park you wouldn't have seen cars in, erm, and it's not really through road, when you look at the map it's sort of like on a 'U', so you've got the, a more main road at the top and one main T-junction to go down at the far end of the two apartment complexes, you didn't really get much through traffic, even going down the hill to the Supermarket there wasn't, there was always cars parked down there, so they must move at some point and there were lots of apartments, people must pass through, but there was never, it was pretty deserted".

4078 "Hear any cars?"
 
Reply "No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm, everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier or, erm, used the baby sitting or whatever service, there were a few people about between and there wasn't really much of a thoroughfare for, erm, for traffic, so nothing that stuck out". (Matt Oldfield)

4078    “Were there any cars around there?”

Reply    “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know.  I don’t remember.  I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.
 
4078    “So as you are trying to remember it and you can think of yourself walking up that road and you have gone past Gerry and Jez”.

Reply    “Umm”.
 
4078    “Are you conscious of any other movement?”

Reply    “It’s, it’s too long now.  Erm, no, not really.  I mean, I was just walking up, you know, I was like just sort of on a, not on a mission, but I was just like, you know, on the way to, to check, so I didn’t notice anything either side.  The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.

4078    “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”

Reply    “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”. (Jane Tanner)

« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 03:36:08 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1287 on: November 14, 2014, 04:05:22 PM »
No cars were seen parked on the road never mind moving past Sadie. Carpenter needs to be questioned about the time he left the tapas. Russ returned at 9:45 and he didn't say he saw any car parked near to the apartment.  And Jane can't really remember because she wasn't on a mission  @)(++(*

So me and Matt walked back to the, to the, erm, to the flats, erm, this would have been about, about kind of twenty-five past nine, I suppose.  Erm, and as we, you know, it will probably come back to, but as you asked me the other day, I didn’t certainly notice anything particularly strange or different, I didn’t see any cars parked or anyone standing around or loitering. (Russell O'Brien)

4078 "And would it have been usually to have heard traffic noise at that time of the evening?"
 
Reply "No, not really, you might get the occasional car come into that car park, but mostly the car park you wouldn't have seen cars in, erm, and it's not really through road, when you look at the map it's sort of like on a 'U', so you've got the, a more main road at the top and one main T-junction to go down at the far end of the two apartment complexes, you didn't really get much through traffic, even going down the hill to the Supermarket there wasn't, there was always cars parked down there, so they must move at some point and there were lots of apartments, people must pass through, but there was never, it was pretty deserted".

4078 "Hear any cars?"
 
Reply "No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm, everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier or, erm, used the baby sitting or whatever service, there were a few people about between and there wasn't really much of a thoroughfare for, erm, for traffic, so nothing that stuck out". (Matt Oldfield)

4078    “Were there any cars around there?”

Reply    “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know.  I don’t remember.  I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.
 
4078    “So as you are trying to remember it and you can think of yourself walking up that road and you have gone past Gerry and Jez”.

Reply    “Umm”.
 
4078    “Are you conscious of any other movement?”

Reply    “It’s, it’s too long now.  Erm, no, not really.  I mean, I was just walking up, you know, I was like just sort of on a, not on a mission, but I was just like, you know, on the way to, to check, so I didn’t notice anything either side.  The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.

4078    “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”

Reply    “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”. (Jane Tanner)

One of the statements says that every night there were some cars parked along there.  I am talking about in Rua Francisco Gentil Martins ... and I think it was near the Tapas receptioin and maybe 5A ?

Stationary cars, after dark esopecially, would just be part of the wallpaper.  Not noticed by anyone unless they were crossing th road or parking a car themselves..

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1288 on: November 14, 2014, 04:17:20 PM »
None there according to Jane, Matt and Russ. Street was deserted according to Jez. No cars seen.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1289 on: November 14, 2014, 04:32:34 PM »
None there according to Jane, Matt and Russ. Street was deserted according to Jez. No cars seen.
Deserted means no people around nor cars moving pFinder.   Empty parked cars dont count on the 'deserted ' front ... soz