Author Topic: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?  (Read 355019 times)

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Offline Lace

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1380 on: September 29, 2015, 09:53:16 AM »
You seem to have forgotten that the forensic results were inconclusive, and that remains the case.

As to accidental death, I have made my views clear, and can you tell me please where accidental death has been ruled out in this case ?

I don't see SY investigating accidental death do you?

The only investigation SY seem to doing is abduction.   Though they did wonder if a burglar could have killed Madeleine and removed her body,   but if that had happened,  there wouldn't be cadaver scent would there?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1381 on: September 29, 2015, 09:55:58 AM »
I don't see SY investigating accidental death do you?

The only investigation SY seem to doing is abduction.   Though they did wonder if a burglar could have killed Madeleine and removed her body,   but if that had happened,  there wouldn't be cadaver scent would there?

You seem to forget Redwood said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

Then again, he said many things, which in effect mean nothing at all.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1382 on: September 29, 2015, 09:57:41 AM »
When the monitor goes off, of course you have cause for concern.  It spurs you into action, you make the necessary checks and act accordingly.  I don't know what the fault rate in such equipment is, maybe low to non-existent so is it a valid comparison?  I don't know.  I prefer the metal detector analogy however, a beep will signify the presence of something worth investigating, however it will not always be treasure.  Same as the dogs IMO. 
As someone who has claimed (albeit in a round-about-read-through-the-lines kind of way) that you don't believe the parents covered up the death of their child, how do you rationalise the dog alerts to yourself?
You don't know the true fault rate of dogs either.
I don't know whether or not the parents covered up the death of their child, I would not lay my purse on the nose either way.
How I rationalise the dog alert is that the dog alerted to what it was trained to alert to until it is shown incontrovertibly that it didn't. Similar to the oxygen monitor: the sensible first reaction is, it's doing what it is supposed to do until you can show it's not.
Metal detectors presumably always detect metal. The monetary value of what they detect is irrelevant. To support your argument I fear they would need to alert to wood sometimes.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Lace

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1383 on: September 29, 2015, 09:58:26 AM »
You seem to forget Redwood said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

Then again, he said many things, which in effect mean nothing at all.

He did say Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive as part of the investigation into a burglar killing Madeleine and removing the body,   not that Madeleine had had an accident.   He had ruled out the McCann's as having anything to do with her disappearance.


stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1384 on: September 29, 2015, 10:01:20 AM »
He did say Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive as part of the investigation into a burglar killing Madeleine and removing the body,   not that Madeleine had had an accident.   He had ruled out the McCann's as having anything to do with her disappearance.

If he conceded the possibility that she dies in the apartment, then the possibility of accidental death can not be ignored.

As to burglary, what evidence, forensic or otherwise, is there of a burglar ?

Offline Lace

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1385 on: September 29, 2015, 10:01:55 AM »
In my opinion SY are dismissing the cadaver alerts when they said a burglar could have killed Madeleine and removed her body as if that had happened then there wouldn't be any cadaver to alert to.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1386 on: September 29, 2015, 10:05:05 AM »
In my opinion SY are dismissing the cadaver alerts when they said a burglar could have killed Madeleine and removed her body as if that had happened then there wouldn't be any cadaver to alert to.

Yet the dogs alerted.

Nothing you can say will change that FACT.


Offline Lace

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1387 on: September 29, 2015, 10:07:44 AM »
If he conceded the possibility that she dies in the apartment, then the possibility of accidental death can not be ignored.

As to burglary, what evidence, forensic or otherwise, is there of a burglar ?

No Stephen,  SY had already said the McCann's and their friends had nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance so that would rule out an accidental death.

They investigated the burglaries are there were burglaries going on around about the time Madeleine disappeared.  The evidence that these burglaries occurred is obviously the fact that holiday makers reported them.

Also there were attacks on young children going on in the area.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1388 on: September 29, 2015, 10:21:26 AM »
In my opinion SY are dismissing the cadaver alerts when they said a burglar could have killed Madeleine and removed her body as if that had happened then there wouldn't be any cadaver to alert to.

Dismissing it on a "could" ?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1389 on: September 29, 2015, 10:22:57 AM »
No Stephen,  SY had already said the McCann's and their friends had nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance so that would rule out an accidental death.

They investigated the burglaries are there were burglaries going on around about the time Madeleine disappeared.  The evidence that these burglaries occurred is obviously the fact that holiday makers reported them.

Also there were attacks on young children going on in the area.

It has yet to be shown that SY interviewed the mccanns or their associates.

The cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown.

'Belief' in abduction, carries no weight in court. FACTS DO.

Now tell me what evidence shows a burglary in the mccanns apartment.

I'm all ears.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1390 on: September 29, 2015, 10:41:52 AM »
You don't know the true fault rate of dogs either.
I don't know whether or not the parents covered up the death of their child, I would not lay my purse on the nose either way.
How I rationalise the dog alert is that the dog alerted to what it was trained to alert to until it is shown incontrovertibly that it didn't. Similar to the oxygen monitor: the sensible first reaction is, it's doing what it is supposed to do until you can show it's not.
Metal detectors presumably always detect metal. The monetary value of what they detect is irrelevant. To support your argument I fear they would need to alert to wood sometimes.
Not at all.  A metal detector is set to alert to metal.  A VRD is set to alert to matter of human origin, including blood.  Not all metal is valuable, not all bits of human (including blood) originate from a person that is necessarily dead. 
I see you have backtracked somewhat on "the parents not being involved" opinion you stated a few days back.  You always were a hard one to pin down but I thought you'd at least conceded it was unlikely.  Obviously I was wrong or you have changed your mind.

Offline Brietta

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1391 on: September 29, 2015, 11:12:35 AM »
Not at all.  A metal detector is set to alert to metal.  A VRD is set to alert to matter of human origin, including blood.  Not all metal is valuable, not all bits of human (including blood) originate from a person that is necessarily dead. 
I see you have backtracked somewhat on "the parents not being involved" opinion you stated a few days back.  You always were a hard one to pin down but I thought you'd at least conceded it was unlikely.  Obviously I was wrong or you have changed your mind.

As a matter of interest there are metal detectors on the market which react only to gold and some which react to gold and silver ... http://www.metaldetector.com/learn/buying-guide-articles/gold-prospecting/whats-the-best-gold-prospecting-metal-detector
Therefore as well as specialist scent dogs we have specialist metal detectors.  The thing about a mechanical tool is that it can be calibrated to produce a proven response ... can one hand on heart say the same for VRD without forensic back up on their indications?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1392 on: September 29, 2015, 12:25:40 PM »
I'm sorry but a blog by a conspiracy theorist (and every case has them) is not worthy of comment IMO.

Didn't seem to be a conspiracy theorist, assuming you actually looked at it. In fact it is more probable that the journalist who wrote the book attacking the police handling of he case was the conspiracy theorist. Very little facts seem to be available about the Quick case.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Lace

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1393 on: September 29, 2015, 12:29:35 PM »
Dismissing it on a "could" ?

Well would they investigate the theory that a burglar killed Madeleine if they thought the cadaver alerts meant anything?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?
« Reply #1394 on: September 29, 2015, 12:31:45 PM »
It has yet to be shown that SY interviewed the mccanns or their associates.

The cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown.

'Belief' in abduction, carries no weight in court. FACTS DO.

Now tell me what evidence shows a burglary in the mccanns apartment.

I'm all ears.

Kates statement that the window was pen is evidence admissible in court
The alerts are not
Therefore Kate's statement should carry more weight