Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[slartibartfast]

Did you bother to follow the link?

My posting style like Ferryman's has also been subject to some criticism from many of the same critics ... so I have amended it to suit and have not included huge chunks of the article I am using to illustrate my point ... just my own précis and the link.
It hasn't worked because you failed to pick up "sniffer dogs" which when looking for a missing person probably translates as Victim Recovery Dog.

You are a Mod now ... don't you think it may be a bit inappropriate to 'pick' at particular posters on a partisan basis particularly when it concerns transparent trivia?  I have already complained to you about feeling 'stalked', I'm less than happy for you to take up from where you left off.


Sniffer dogs who were used to locate bodies at the site of Ground Zero in New York after the 9/11 terror attack were also sent into the single storey property.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307228/Husband-hoarder-discovers-body-piles-rubbish-messy-house-shared--months-went-missing.html#ixzz3nRyAcMSZ

I did follow the link thank you, most police dogs are sniffer dogs, they are trained to find different things, perhaps you know what these were trained to find?

[Mr Gray]

the dogs are reliable at finding evidence but their unconfirmed alerts are worthless

[Eleanor]

Good Morning, everyone.  Let's have a nice day if we have to do this again.

Yes, I believe that the dogs can be relied upon, if there is a body or evidence to be found.  But not much use otherwise.

[G-Unit]

I did follow the link thank you, most police dogs are sniffer dogs, they are trained to find different things, perhaps you know what these were trained to find?

Search and rescue and cadaver dogs were both used at the 9/11 site. They did a wonderful job working long hours and picking up cut paws and other small injuries and illnesses.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/09/the-heroic-dogs-of-9112/

[Mr Gray]

Search and rescue and cadaver dogs were both used at the 9/11 site. They did a wonderful job working long hours and picking up cut paws and other small injuries and illnesses.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/09/the-heroic-dogs-of-9112/

no one questions the great work theses dogs do......its the unconfirmed alerts we question and we question them because of what Grime tells us

[G-Unit]

no one questions the great work theses dogs do......its the unconfirmed alerts we question and we question them because of what Grime tells us

Grime gave two sorts of opinion. One was his own opinion of what the alerts were and what they meant. The other was his opinion as a police officer concerning the evidential value of the alerts. His own opinion of Eddies abilities are;

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.

So the trainer and handler of Eddie is quite clear about his opinion of his dog's abilities. However, for legal purposes;

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent'
contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[ferryman]

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, ...

Such as a toy that takes his fancy and that some rotter has hidden from him, and he wants it back ....

[Brietta]

I did follow the link thank you, most police dogs are sniffer dogs, they are trained to find different things, perhaps you know what these were trained to find?

Are you seriously suggesting that police searching for a woman missing for four months are going to bring along anything other than a Victim Recovery Dog?

I would have thought that was a given when 'sniffer dogs' were mentioned in the article. When I read it in context I had absolutely no problem identifying what these dogs were trained to find.
Had the article been on a drugs bust and not a missing person ... I would also have been able to deduce what the dogs had been trained to find.

Even these dogs which had been used to look for the remains of victims in the Twin Towers failed to locate the scent of a decomposing body on this occasion ... just one instance proving that dogs are not reliable.



**Snip
Sniffer dogs who were used to locate bodies at the site of Ground Zero in New York after the 9/11 terror attack were also sent into the single storey property.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307228/Husband-hoarder-discovers-body-piles-rubbish-messy-house-shared--months-went-missing.html#ixzz3nRyAcMSZ

[Mr Gray]

Grime gave two sorts of opinion. One was his own opinion of what the alerts were and what they meant. The other was his opinion as a police officer concerning the evidential value of the alerts. His own opinion of Eddies abilities are;

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.

So the trainer and handler of Eddie is quite clear about his opinion of his dog's abilities. However, for legal purposes;

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent'
contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

you are desperately trying to find something to support your own opinions...Grime is quite clear...the alerts do NOT confirm the presence of cadaver odour....

[Lace]

you are desperately trying to find something to support your own opinions...Grime is quite clear...the alerts do NOT confirm the presence of cadaver odour....

No they didn't,  Amaral took the alerts and ran with it even though they did not confirm the presence of cadaver scent.

To him the McCann's were guilty.

He then proceeded to say that 100% DNA of Madeleine was found with the blood alert which again wasn't true.

[Eleanor]

No they didn't,  Amaral took the alerts and ran with it even though they did not confirm the presence of cadaver scent.

To him the McCann's were guilty.

He then proceeded to say that 100% DNA of Madeleine was found with the blood alert which again wasn't true.

Good Post.

[G-Unit]

you are desperately trying to find something to support your own opinions...Grime is quite clear...the alerts do NOT confirm the presence of cadaver odour....

I'm not desperately trying to find anything actually, I class as desperate the posts of those trying to discredit Grime and his dogs. I have read Grime's statements and he clearly had great faith in his dogs. Until his dogs are proved wrong I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. As I have said repeatedly Eddie may have been wrong BUT he also may have been right. There is no evidence either way, so it's 50/50.

[Mr Gray]

I'm not desperately trying to find anything actually, I class as desperate the posts of those trying to discredit Grime and his dogs. I have read Grime's statements and he clearly had great faith in his dogs. Until his dogs are proved wrong I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. As I have said repeatedly Eddie may have been wrong BUT he also may have been right. There is no evidence either way, so it's 50/50.

you have things back to front...no one has to prove the dogs wrong...that is not the way the justice system works and shows how skewed your logic is. The dogs have to be proved right..and they have not been. The alerts are not 50/50...without corroboration they have zero credibility

[ferryman]

you have things back to front...no one has to prove the dogs wrong...that is not the way the justice system works and shows how skewed your logic is. The dogs have to be proved right..and they have not been. The alerts are not 50/50...without corroboration they have zero credibility

In fairness, Eddie's alert to the Renault Scenic is corroborated, Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

[pathfinder73]

In fairness, Eddie's alert to the Renault Scenic is corroborated, Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

That key wasn't behind the sofa.