Author Topic: So what is the evidence for abduction?  (Read 172431 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2014, 02:53:44 PM »
[... comment removed ...]

Does Grime say "not admissible in court"?

It is yet to be determined whether or not they have evidential value.

It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.

PJ Inspector Dias, quoting Martin Grime.

So, yes.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/OUSTROS_APENSOS_11_VOLUMES.htm


Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.

(Mark Harrison)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 03:24:39 PM by John »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2014, 03:11:55 PM »
Ah, so the thread subject has changed to "so what proof is there of abduction?".

Is it Grime's decision as to whether evidence gained with the use of his dogs is admissible in court?

Decision?

Grime was stating the law.  Uncorroborated dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence.

Offline John

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2014, 03:15:54 PM »
Decision?

Grime was stating the law.  Uncorroborated dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence.

That's correct, the key/operative word being uncorroborated. However, should new evidence be discovered which corroborates the dog alerts then we are into a completely different ball game.

For the benefit of all posters, this thread relates to all evidence and does not limit itself to admissible or corroborated evidence.

So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 03:21:05 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2014, 03:23:31 PM »
still lots of confusion re the legal terms being used. As I mentioned before, evidence proves something. If it proves something relavant, it forms part of the case, if it proves something not relevant, then its not part of the case. If it does not meet required standards, it cant be introduced within the legal environment, if it doesn't prove anything, then it's either not evidence in the first place or subject to cross examination which then undermines it (this would normally be expert matter of opinion rather than fact).  One piece of evidence, that is accepted by the judge or jury proves a fact. In most occasions, one piece of evidence does not prove guilt as it normally takes a set of proven facts to turn a theory (ie the allegation) into something that the court accepts as proven reality (beyond reasonable doubt), sometimes there is so much evidence that even if some is excluded through procedure or undermined by the defence, there is still enough evidence to prove the case.  there seems to be confusion between evidence proving a fact and evidence proving guilt. So much emotion on these threads that its hard to keep to cold, rational legal concepts.

sorry Pat..evidence doesn't always prove something...I'm afraid you are wrong again...take dna...thats pretty good evidence.....its admissable...what does its presence prove...sometimes nothing...you keep on saying the same thing that evidence proves something...it does sometimes...sometimes it doesn't...

identification evidence...accepted in court...does it prove anything...no...its unreliable

Offline John

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2014, 03:31:12 PM »
Correct Dave, evidence can point to two or more completely different conclusions.

The dog alert evidence could be because the dog...

* detected cadaver scent.

* detected dried human blood.

* detected pork.

* detected body ash.

* was accidentally queued.


Have I missed anything?


A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2014, 03:35:24 PM »
Correct Dave, evidence can point to two or more completely different conclusions.

The dog alert evidence could be because the dog...

* detected cadaver scent.

* detected dried human blood.

* detected pork.

* detected body ash.

* was accidentally queued.


Have I missed anything?

Yes.

Was miffed because someone took his toy away ...

Although I suppose that would count as accidental cuing ...

OK ...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 03:37:38 PM by ferryman »

Offline John

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2014, 03:39:30 PM »
Let's see what we have so far.  Evidence (not proof) which can point to abduction can include...

* The fact that Madeleine is missing.
* The wide open window and raised shutter.
* Two men seen afterwards carrying a child in pyjamas.
 

Nobody knows better than me how evidence can be construed and manipulated to persuade a bored jury that a crime has taken place. Evidence can be a minefield of inconsistencies.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 03:43:33 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2014, 04:47:07 PM »
So you disagree with the snip from archiving dispatch?
On what basis do you disagree with it?

which snip

Offline Gildas

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2014, 05:07:27 PM »
It is in the final Report, he stated that the dog alerts had no evidential value unless corroborated by forensics. In this case the forensics were inconclusive thus meaningless. Consequently, the dog alerts are evidence without a value. They are not proof.

Mr Moderator,

Thank you for your reply.

When I checked Mr Grimes report, I found that this is what he states about the alerts:

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is  suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."

In this statement, he uses the word "reliability" not "value".








T

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2014, 05:33:28 PM »
The snip included in my earlier post.
The thread title is "So what is the evidence for abduction"?  not "Are Drs McCann guilty or innocent of a crime with which they have not been charged"
The AG Archiving Dispatch said
But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann – apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment – or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship.

During the investigation by The Metropolitan Police service since 2011 their website has used the terms "disappearance" "missing" "abduction" and of course there was The Commissioners indiscreet use of the term "murder" and DCI Redwood's suggestion the child may not have left the apartment alive.
So the two police forces involved are not stating categorically there was an abduction presumably because they have insufficient evidence of such a crime.

the fact that SY are treating this case as a stranger abduction is extremely relavent to the thread..SYs website talks of a stranger abduction


the archiving report states there is no evidence of any crime committed by the mccanns...thats very clear

Offline slartibartfast

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2014, 05:33:47 PM »
Evidence is a pointer that might indicate guilt but is not conclusive.

Proof is an irrefutable indicator of guilt.

Sometimes, several pieces of evidence, none of them on their own conclusive, can collectively amount to proof.

The conviction of Peter Voisey is a classic example. 

There was no, smoking-gun proof of his guilt.  But several pieces of evidence.

He was on the sex-offenders' register and therefore capable of the crime.  That fact wasn't presented to the jury, but will no doubt have influenced the police and CPS in pressing charges.

His mobile phone placed him the "right" area at the time of the crime.  There was a weak DNA correlation, although DNA might have conclusively ruled him out. 

A footprint recovered from the wet bathroom floor precisely matched the pattern of a pair of shoes he owned.

The little girl was an excellent witness, although her evidence was never released.  Maybe she was able to describe details of the interior of his car, or items of clothing he possessed (we can only guess).

There was an entry in his diary: it's finished.  He claimed that referred to Christmas (the crime was just after Christams).

None of that, on its own, would have been sufficient to convict.

Collectively, it all amounted to a compelling case.



In a similar vein, those with doubts will view...

Dog Alerts
Wiped Cell Phone records
Inconsistent Statements
Deep Sleeping Twins
Refusing to Answer Questions
Refusing to do reconstruction
Leaving PDL quickly after saying would never leave
Excessive use of Litigation
Body Language
Unrestricted Fund
Smith Sighting
Crying in the Night
Leaving Twins for extended periods (plus to raise alarm)

As those bits of evidence.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2014, 05:37:58 PM »
In a similar vein, those with doubts will view...

Dog Alerts
Wiped Cell Phone records
Inconsistent Statements
Deep Sleeping Twins
Refusing to Answer Questions
Refusing to do reconstruction
Leaving PDL quickly after saying would never leave
Excessive use of Litigation
Body Language
Unrestricted Fund
Smith Sighting
Crying in the Night
Leaving Twins for extended periods (plus to raise alarm)

As those bits of evidence.

and those with an open mind wont I suppose...its what SY believe thats important...not suspects

Offline Brietta

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2014, 05:46:37 PM »
Mr Moderator,

Thank you for your reply.

When I checked Mr Grimes report, I found that this is what he states about the alerts:

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is  suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."

In this statement, he uses the word "reliability" not "value".

Usually Mr Grime's reports would not be made public in the way they have been.  Would I be right in thinking that dog handlers usually work below the radar in Britain and are seldom called to give evidence in court?

I bet he could not have foreseen his official report being posted on the internet and dissected as it has been.

I think it is a mark of his professionalism that he gave textbook answers covering every point made.
I have never seen any criticism or error pointed out in what Mr Grime says in his report ... but I have seen a lot of misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

I remain unimpressed by the videos though
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2014, 06:13:02 PM »
Do you have a cite which indicates that the MPS are following this line to the exclusion of all others?  Or is it just your opinion?
Red bit: you keep saying this why? I have not suggested the McCanns are guilty of anything. If the archiving report cannot identify what if any crime has been committed the rest is self evident.

I think you are splitting hairs due to your reluctance to accept facts

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2014, 06:39:04 PM »
Usually Mr Grime's reports would not be made public in the way they have been.  Would I be right in thinking that dog handlers usually work below the radar in Britain and are seldom called to give evidence in court?

I bet he could not have foreseen his official report being posted on the internet and dissected as it has been.

I think it is a mark of his professionalism that he gave textbook answers covering every point made.
I have never seen any criticism or error pointed out in what Mr Grime says in his report ... but I have seen a lot of misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

I remain unimpressed by the videos though

His response in his rogatory interview to the question put to him about the apparent alert of Eddie to cuddle-cat was the antithesis of professional, or textbook.