The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...

[Anna]

Seems to be a problem for murderers when trying to give up the location of a victim's body, John, possibly because the initial internment is carried out in a hurry and possibly in darkness.

The Orkney case when the body was hidden in sand dunes immediately springs to mind, the wind probably altering contours.

The bodies of people murdered by the IRA sometimes took some time to find also and some of them never have been.

So maybe it was as much failed recollection of the exact location in Prout's case than his expertise in hiding Mrs Prout's body.

Some of Hindley and Brady's victims were never found either IIRC, despite Brady trying to show them where the graves were. I wonder if the cadaver dogs have been used since, to try and find them?

[Brietta]

Some of Hindley and Brady's victims were never found either IIRC,despite Brady trying to show them where the graves were. I wonder if the cadaver dogs have been used since, to try and find them?

I sincerely doubt Ian Brady had the slightest interest in giving up his power game by telling anyone where the bodies of his victims are interred.

I believe that cadaver dogs and volunteers from Wales spent a lot of time searching the moors for Keith Bennet's body ... I read somewhere they were able to justify it as training exercises.

I found the following which seems to suggest that it is possible they were within an ace of being successful but the untimely death of the Chief constable seems to have finished it on the basis of cost.
One wonders if having gone so far would it not have been worth continuing to give Winnie Johnson and her family the closure of being able to bury her son.

 - Snip -

Police used computer imagery to compare the current landscape to the scenery in the pictures from 1964.

They also got geologists to look at the movement of soil and peat over the past 40 years to work out where a body would be had it been dumped at a particular site.

Astonishingly, they had the free assistance of a U.S. spy satellite.

With the permission of the Pentagon, the satellite looked for evidence of soil disturbance and images of the area were passed on to investigators.

Then officers identified a 20 yard peat ridge near Shiny Brook  -  a particularly remote area  -  as the most likely location of Keith's remains.

Specialist sniffer dogs went 'wild with excitement' after apparently detecting body vapours there.

Geo-chemists found abnormally high traces of carbon 13 in soil and water in the area -  another indication that a body was likely to be nearby.

But because the area was so remote, police were unable to get a mechanical digger there.

More than 10 people, including detectives, Army experts, geologists and specialist search officers, were involved in one prolonged search in April 2007.

Dedicated: Michael Todd, the late Greater Manchester Police Chief, did everything possible to find Keith Bennett's body

Army experts were flown in from Ulster to take part in the operation, which was witnessed by the late, inspirational chief constable of Greater Manchester, Michael Todd, who according to senior colleagues was determined to give Mrs Johnson the opportunity to give Keith a 'proper Manchester funeral'.

But sadly, the most concerted effort in more than two decades to find Keith's body ultimately failed and the searched was abandoned, largely for cost reasons after Mr Todd's tragic death in 2008.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2189807/For-50-years-Keith-Bennetts-mother-planned-funeral-Its-time-final-effort-body--cost.html

[Anna]

I sincerely doubt Ian Brady had the slightest interest in giving up his power game by telling anyone where the bodies of his victims are interred.

I believe that cadaver dogs and volunteers from Wales spent a lot of time searching the moors for Keith Bennet's body ... I read somewhere they were able to justify it as training exercises.

I found the following which seems to suggest that it is possible they were within an ace of being successful but the untimely death of the Chief constable seems to have finished it on the basis of cost.
One wonders if having gone so far would it not have been worth continuing to give Winnie Johnson and her family the closure of being able to bury her son.

 - Snip -

Police used computer imagery to compare the current landscape to the scenery in the pictures from 1964.

They also got geologists to look at the movement of soil and peat over the past 40 years to work out where a body would be had it been dumped at a particular site.

Astonishingly, they had the free assistance of a U.S. spy satellite.

With the permission of the Pentagon, the satellite looked for evidence of soil disturbance and images of the area were passed on to investigators.

Then officers identified a 20 yard peat ridge near Shiny Brook  -  a particularly remote area  -  as the most likely location of Keith's remains.

Specialist sniffer dogs went 'wild with excitement' after apparently detecting body vapours there.

Geo-chemists found abnormally high traces of carbon 13 in soil and water in the area -  another indication that a body was likely to be nearby.

But because the area was so remote, police were unable to get a mechanical digger there.

More than 10 people, including detectives, Army experts, geologists and specialist search officers, were involved in one prolonged search in April 2007.

Dedicated: Michael Todd, the late Greater Manchester Police Chief, did everything possible to find Keith Bennett's body

Army experts were flown in from Ulster to take part in the operation, which was witnessed by the late, inspirational chief constable of Greater Manchester, Michael Todd, who according to senior colleagues was determined to give Mrs Johnson the opportunity to give Keith a 'proper Manchester funeral'.

But sadly, the most concerted effort in more than two decades to find Keith's body ultimately failed and the searched was abandoned, largely for cost reasons after Mr Todd's tragic death in 2008.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2189807/For-50-years-Keith-Bennetts-mother-planned-funeral-Its-time-final-effort-body--cost.html

Thank you Brietta, I remember it so well....It shocked the country. So terribly Sorry as I am for all the families concerned, I was just too busy raising my children to follow much of what was happening afterward they were jailed.
I found your info very interesting and noticed there was peat fields in the area searched. Peat can cause cadaver dogs to give a false alert.
Its a shame the search had to be abandoned, but everything has a time limit, as I am sure will also happen with The Maddie search eventually, unless of course(fingers crossed) she is found soon.

[lordpookles]

The dogs are perhaps the only strong indicator in this case of the true nature of what happened that night imo. I think even in the heart of the biggest McCann supporters this must create some doubt. Indeed I think something awful happened in that apartment. In my mind there can only really be a few simple/credible explanations for the alerts. Firstly, Madelinne died in the apartment, secondly, Kate transferred the scent of death to the apartment from her work as a doctor and handling corpses and thirdly the PJ decided to contaminate the scene and incriminate the McCanns. Given what I have read of the lead detectives history this is not a completely unreasonable suspicion. My own opinion is if the PJ did not do this then Madelinne dying in the apartment is the simplest and most logical answer and then it seems even more incredible that a perp would have time to be in and out whilst killing a child, leaves no evidence and makes his escape...

Also reading through many opinions on these dog alerts I think you guys are doing some wild straw clutching to explain away the alerts. Why not accept that it happened and the dogs did alert to some trace of cadaver odour and go from there? Seems to me sceptics and believers alike this is the most solid indication we have right now. Why not explore theories around that? Making insinuations about the dogs ability and Martin Grimes handling seems ignorant to me and stinks of someone with an agenda to push. In the interests of openness I do believe the McCanns are involved but also would be entirely willing to change my mind and am by no means certain at all... My agenda here is I simply find this case as many others do a very interesting perhaps impossible puzzle...

[VIXTE]

The dogs are perhaps the only strong indicator in this case of the true nature of what happened that night imo. I think even in the heart of the biggest McCann supporters this must create some doubt. Indeed I think something awful happened in that apartment. In my mind there can only really be a few simple/credible explanations for the alerts. Firstly, Madelinne died in the apartment, secondly, Kate transferred the scent of death to the apartment from her work as a doctor and handling corpses and thirdly the PJ decided to contaminate the scene and incriminate the McCanns. Given what I have read of the lead detectives history this is not a completely unreasonable suspicion. My own opinion is if the PJ did not do this then Madelinne dying in the apartment is the simplest and most logical answer and then it seems even more incredible that a perp would have time to be in and out whilst killing a child, leaves no evidence and makes his escape...

Also reading through many opinions on these dog alerts I think you guys are doing some wild straw clutching to explain away the alerts. Why not accept that it happened and the dogs did alert to some trace of cadaver odour and go from there? Seems to me sceptics and believers alike this is the most solid indication we have right now. Why not explore theories around that? Making insinuations about the dogs ability and Martin Grimes handling seems ignorant to me and stinks of someone with an agenda to push. In the interests of openness I do believe the McCanns are involved but also would be entirely willing to change my mind and am by no means certain at all... My agenda here is I simply find this case as many others do a very interesting perhaps impossible puzzle...

What about the Portuguese search dogs who found Madeleine's trace into a car park and who were applied soon after she disappeared?
Why would we trust Keala and Eddie but not trust the other dogs?

[lordpookles]

Well seems to me that was a well trodden route by Madelinne anyway seeing as she was there all week and seeing as there was no trace of her in the apartment of course this does not contradict the alerts by Eddie and Keela....

[lordpookles]

Also if I was being really critical the Mccanns obviously provided the item which was a blanket I believe for the dogs to pick up her scent? If you are suspicious of them which I them I would also be suspicious of any item they provided for the dogs to track Madelinne...

[Brietta]

Well seems to me that was a well trodden route by Madelinne anyway seeing as she was there all week and seeing as there was no trace of her in the apartment of course this does not contradict the alerts by Eddie and Keela....

Exactly which incontrovertible 'alerts' leading to trial and conviction would those be?

[lordpookles]

Trial and conviction? Of course not. We know that corroborating evidence is needed. Though if I'm not mistaken in the US these dog alerts have actually been used as the main evidence and procured convictions. Anyway, Lets speak hypothetically if you will? Assuming Eddie did alert to cadaver odour - how could it's presence be explained? Let's ignore the car and just concentrate on the apartment...

[Brietta]

Trial and conviction? Of course not. We know that corroborating evidence is needed. Though if I'm not mistaken in the US these dog alerts have actually been used as the main evidence and procured convictions. Anyway, Lets speak hypothetically if you will? Assuming Eddie did alert to cadaver odour - how could it's presence be explained? Let's ignore the car and just concentrate on the apartment...

I don't do hypotheticals.

[misty]

I don't do hypotheticals.

I do.
Splish splash splosh. 

No blood detected by original forensics team - or would you allege that they were incompetent?

[lordpookles]

Ah. But this is a hypothetical. You're trying to question the dog alerts again which is valid but in this case Im simply trying to think of reasons why there would be cadaver odour present. In any case the original forensic team may well not find blood given the sensitivity of these dogs noses and our crude instruments in comparison. And er yeah I think there are a few indicators of a rather casual attitude towards the original forensics according to articles I've read ...

[Benice]

Ah. But this is a hypothetical. You're trying to question the dog alerts again which is valid but in this case Im simply trying to think of reasons why there would be cadaver odour present. In any case the original forensic team may well not find blood given the sensitivity of these dogs noses and our crude instruments in comparison. And er yeah I think there are a few indicators of a rather casual attitude towards the original forensics according to articles I've read ...

One reason is that the presence of cadaverscent can be attributed to body bits and body fluids from people who are alive and well .

And that is just one of the reasons given to us by Martin Grime as to why (without the necessary evidence)  it cannot be assumed that an alert meant that a dead body must once have been present at that spot.

IMO the description of Eddie as a 'cadaver' dog is misleading.   He was trained to detect decomposing human remains - not only from cadavers, but from living people too.

If you look back you will find that all the other various reasons for an alert have already been discussed at great length (some would say ad nauseam) previously on this forum.

[Wonderfulspam]

One reason is that the presence of cadaverscent can be attributed to body bits and body fluids from people who are alive and well .

And that is just one of the reasons given to us by Martin Grime as to why (without the necessary evidence)  it cannot be assumed that an alert meant that a dead body must once have been present at that spot.

IMO the description of Eddie as a 'cadaver' dog is misleading.   He was trained to detect decomposing human remains - not only from cadavers, but from living people too.

If you look back you will find that all the other various reasons for an alert have already been discussed at great length (some would say ad nauseam) previously on this forum.

And it was only 5a, the garden, Kate's clothes & the McCann's hire car that happened to be contaminated, nowhere else.

Get real.

[Brietta]

One reason is that the presence of cadaverscent can be attributed to body bits and body fluids from people who are alive and well .

And that is just one of the reasons given to us by Martin Grime as to why (without the necessary evidence)  it cannot be assumed that an alert meant that a dead body must once have been present at that spot.

IMO the description of Eddie as a 'cadaver' dog is misleading.   He was trained to detect decomposing human remains - not only from cadavers, but from living people too.

If you look back you will find that all the other various reasons for an alert have already been discussed at great length (some would say ad nauseam) previously on this forum.

Precisely Benice ... and all the hypotheses in the world will not alter the fact that the dog 'alerts' mean absolutely nada in relation to whatever happened to Madeleine McCann ... except for being a huge distraction and the basis for a semi-cult belief "dogs don't lie" which in this case has been refuted by the dog handler in his Rogatory statement ... why does no-one ever bother to read that in preference to hypothetical fantasy?