The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...

[stephen25000]

Precisely Benice ... and all the hypotheses in the world will not alter the fact that the dog 'alerts' mean absolutely nada in relation to whatever happened to Madeleine McCann ... except for being a huge distraction and the basis for a semi-cult belief "dogs don't lie" which in this case has been refuted by the dog handler in his Rogatory statement ... why does no-one ever bother to read that in preference to hypothetical fantasy?

..............and pray tell, where has it been established/proved the dog's didn't alert to a body.

[lordpookles]

Huh that was not my understanding at all that they reacted to live body parts/fluids. In fact on another forum 'websleuths' they had a Q&A with a cadaver dog handler who explicitly stated several times that the dog does not respond to live parts/fluids in relation to Eddie.

[sadie]

..............and pray tell, where has it been established/proved the dog's didn't alert to a body.

There isn't any proof that the dogs did alert to a body.  Nothing at all except dogs that alert to blood alerting to something


NOTHING to indicate any bodies there. 


Why on earth do you keep going on about it Stephen?

[VIXTE]

Well seems to me that was a well trodden route by Madelinne anyway seeing as she was there all week and seeing as there was no trace of her in the apartment of course this does not contradict the alerts by Eddie and Keela....

Madeleine never travelled by a car from that car park in the whole week.

The cadaver dogs came in much later. The sniffer dogs were applied straight away.

We never learnt who parked there in that exact spot where the dogs lost the trail.

[stephen25000]

There isn't any proof that the dogs did alert to a body.  Nothing at all except dogs that alert to blood alerting to something


NOTHING to indicate any bodies there. 


Why on earth do you keep going on about it Stephen?

The point being sadie, it hasn't been disproved that the dogs didn't alert to a body.

Do keep up.

You want people to believe the thesis of abduction, for which there's exists no evidence/proof that would stand up in court, yet you won't accept ANY OTHER POSSIBILITIES.

I have asked many times for someone to provide unequivocal evidence of abduction.

I am still waiting.

[Benice]

Huh that was not my understanding at all that they reacted to live body parts. In fact on another forum 'websleuths' they had a Q&A with a cadaver dog handler who explicitly stated this was not the case many times in relation to Eddie.

Eddie alerted to the key fob.  Forensic testing found Gerry's DNA on it.    Gerry is alive and kicking.  Eddie was therefore alerting to the scent of decomposing cellular material which had emanated from a living person and not from a dead body.

It is Martin Grime's own assertion that detecting and alerting to decomposing blood from living human beings (even in miniscule quantities) was one of his dogs' skills.   The alert to the key fob would appear to confirm that assertion IMO.

[lordpookles]

Yes he did and I agree with you. Most likely it was simply Gerry's dried blood. As far as I know and from the Q&A I mentioned which I will link to when I'm not at work the dog only alerts to blood and cadaver odour - not any other body fluids from a living person. Ie sperm, mucus etc... The 2nd dog is of course just a blood dog. Hence the places where only Eddie alerts is meant to indicate the odour from a corpse...

I honestly don't see why we can't have a hypothetical here. Just because the odour of a dead body may have been in the apartment does not mean the McCanns are guilty and aren't we all looking for the truth? As a sceptic I'm certainly interested in exploring the abduction scenario which I believe is also credible....

[Brietta]

..............and pray tell, where has it been established/proved the dog's didn't alert to a body.

Maybe the stated fact the 'alerts' were not evidential.

[Brietta]

Huh that was not my understanding at all that they reacted to live body parts/fluids. In fact on another forum 'websleuths' they had a Q&A with a cadaver dog handler who explicitly stated several times that the dog does not respond to live parts/fluids in relation to Eddie.

Once the fluids are expelled from the living body be it blood - nails - semen - snot - the cadavar dog will alert; and dogs trained on pig foetuses will alert to pig.
For certification purposes some dogs are capable of finding a single tooth in a search area, just as Eddie homed in on teeth in Jersey, as well as tissues used to clean up after sex.

I suggest you read up on a few independent on going studies of working dogs and their capabilities.     

[slartibartfast]

Once the fluids are expelled from the living body be it blood - nails - semen - snot - the cadavar dog will alert; and dogs trained on pig foetuses will alert to pig.
For certification purposes some dogs are capable of finding a single tooth in a search area, just as Eddie homed in on teeth in Jersey, as well as tissues used to clean up after sex.

I suggest you read up on a few independent on going studies of working dogs and their capabilities.   

The tissues were alerted to a blood dog as well so there it was blood. A bit of misinformation from you.

[sadie]

The tissues were alerted to a blood dog as well so there it was blood. A bit of misinformation from you.

Not impossible for there to have been both semen and blood on the tissue. 

If it was in an outdoor public place that the sex took place (and IIRC it was) then I very much doubt that the bloke would be carrying a new packet of tissues around with him.  More likely it was some already grotty tissue from his pocket.


Only guessing 

[lordpookles]

Ok that's a more interesting response. I will do some reading up and will additionally post the Q&A I mentioned. I did not think what you said regarding seamen/fingernail clippings was the case at all but if that is the case seems to me these dogs could be wildly alerting all over the place. As far as I am aware caverdine odour is expelled once the person dies and is in fact a chemical reaction and it is definitley possible given the sensitivity of these dogs noses to discern the difference between fluids from a dead person and those from a living person. Anyway admittedly I could well be wrong and if what you say is the case that is very interesting... However I'm fairly sure that the dog trainer I'm referencing does not share your point of view... Anyway will check this out later....

[slartibartfast]

Not impossible for there to have been both semen and blood on the tissue. 

If it was in an outdoor public place that the sex took place (and IIRC it was) then I very much doubt that the bloke would be carrying a new packet of tissues around with him.  More likely it was some already grotty tissue from his pocket.


Only guessing 

Yes we know that, which is why anyone claiming that the dog alerted to semen is being economical with the truth.

[Anna]

Ok that's a more interesting response. I will do some reading up and will additionally post the Q&A I mentioned. I did not think what you said regarding seamen/fingernail clippings was the case at all but if that is the case seems to me these dogs could be wildly alerting all over the place. As far as I am aware caverdine odour is expelled once the person dies and is in fact a chemical reaction and it is definitley possible given the sensitivity of these dogs noses to discern the difference between fluids from a dead person and those from a living person. Anyway admittedly I could well be wrong and if what you say is the case that is very interesting... However I'm fairly sure that the dog trainer I'm referencing does not share your point of view... Anyway will check this out later....

Any part of a body that is no longer fresh, will cause cadervine odour. Placenta from a live person(when they can get it), has been used by some trainers to train the dogs, also teeth.
 Any part of a pig or a human body, from the living or dead, that is no longer fresh, will produce cadervine scent.
I am more interested, in why he dogs did not alert to blood in any other apartment, since there had been many occupants in the past and it is very unlikely that none ever had an incident of bleeding.
In 5A there had been several incidents of bleeding in a matter of weeks from previous residents.
Like you, I simply want to know what happened to MM, but there is no reliable evidence to support her death or Abduction at this time. Therefore we look at all the possibilities and rule out the less likely of the possibilities.

[ferryman]

Once the fluids are expelled from the living body be it blood - nails - semen - snot - the cadavar dog will alert; and dogs trained on pig foetuses will alert to pig.
For certification purposes some dogs are capable of finding a single tooth in a search area, just as Eddie homed in on teeth in Jersey, as well as tissues used to clean up after sex.

I suggest you read up on a few independent on going studies of working dogs and their capabilities.   

Just about the only thing that sticks in my mind from one of Heido-ho's dreadful videos was a proud boast of a (US) dog handler that his dog would find a tear-drop on a US football pitch (considerably larger than European football pitches) in 5 minutes.

I remember being very unimpressed.

If cadaver dogs are really that sensitive, why aren't they alerting every 5 minutes all the time?