Author Topic: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...  (Read 58361 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #195 on: October 07, 2014, 08:08:22 PM »
Ah ok. So we have dogs alerting in the apartment and suprisingly in the couples car they rented 2-3 weeks after the event. I also remember from the documentary that a witness saw the car boot open all night for several days according to the detective. Is there any other verification of this and if so do we think this is normal behaviour?

Nothing surprising about an alert to the blood of Gerry McCann in the car.

And you have to ask why Eddie needed constant directing and re-directing (commented on by a PJ officer) before (finally) alerting to anything in apartment 5a.

And why did Eddie need two stabs at reacting to the cuddlecat toy?

Offline lordpookles

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #196 on: October 07, 2014, 08:13:50 PM »
I hear you and I don't nesscessarily disagree but I think without the opinion of an expert we are simply indulging own ignorance. Considering we had the alerts in the apartment it was may well be standard to call the dog back like that. Also Grines being the handler could have sensed something in his dogs which made him call them back. I really think it's disingenerous here to question the professionalism of Grimes. You are suggesting by calling his dogs back he induced them to bark and make a false alert...

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #197 on: October 07, 2014, 08:16:40 PM »
I hear you and I don't nesscessarily disagree but I think without the opinion of an expert we are simply indulging own ignorance. Considering we had the alerts in the apartment it was may well be standard to call the dog back like that. Also Grines being the handler could have sensed something in his dogs which made him call them back. I really think it's disingenerous here to question the professionalism of Grimes. You are suggesting by calling his dogs back he induced them to bark and make a false alert...

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Grime calling the dog back...the dog's job is to find evidence...it's important nothing is missed so calling back is essential. The fact is that no evidence was found despite the exhaustive search

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #198 on: October 07, 2014, 09:35:53 PM »
Ah ok. So we have dogs alerting in the apartment and suprisingly in the couples car they rented 2-3 weeks after the event. I also remember from the documentary that a witness saw the car boot open all night for several days according to the detective. Is there any other verification of this and if so do we think this is normal behaviour?

I wouldn't bother too much with what the documentary says.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline lordpookles

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #199 on: October 08, 2014, 12:29:43 AM »
Why not? I see that the documentary is biased of course. Can also see he has various agendas and motives and some of his recent assertions seem crazy maybe desperate. Whether they are crazy it is impossibly hard to tell imo. This whole case seems to have become one mad PR frenzy from many different angles and from all the parties involved as far as I can tell. Public perception is king.

As far as the dogs go I brought up the supposed eye witness regarding the airing of the car as possible evidence to corroborate the dog alerts. So Davel if I was to interpret Grimes remarks I would say he means these dog alerts are useless in a criminal court in this country without corroborating evidence. Whether this evidence is forensic or otherwise I am not sure. Fairly sure though that Scotland Yard would take this seriously and feature in their analysis and discussions of the case. Whether Scotland Yard are playing a game of poker is also very hard to tell. My own personal view is I think they are also unsure. Seems like they are throwing a lot of resources at this in an almost scattergun type approach from charity collectors, burglars, smithman and maybe more. I feel regarding the mccanns their answer to the media would be the McCanns are not suspects whether they were or weren't. I don't know whtehr you are familiar with game theory, but it is a basic strategy. Another similar example being when making a bluff in poker. In fact I felt it was strange that Redwood never sat in with the McCanns during the interview on crimewatch. Very often they do I have noticed. Anyway mere speculation on my part. My point is I think it is impossible to say with complete conifidence that they are not suspects. I say this as I have read your opinion on this various times in threads on this forum.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 12:32:34 AM by lordpookles »

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #200 on: October 08, 2014, 11:52:32 AM »
Please note ... there was no 'alert' from Eddie in the car boot.

To ascertain exactly what relevance there was to Madeleine McCann of the forensic samples recovered from the Renault ... please refer to the report from the FSS ...
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #201 on: October 08, 2014, 12:49:13 PM »
Please note ... there was no 'alert' from Eddie in the car boot.

To ascertain exactly what relevance there was to Madeleine McCann of the forensic samples recovered from the Renault ... please refer to the report from the FSS ...

Quite right.

And that there was even blood in the mixture recovered from the boot rests solely on the assumption that Keela did not alert falsely.

Nothing identified as "blood" is referred to in John Lowe's report.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #202 on: October 08, 2014, 01:46:29 PM »
But of course the fact that they found no evidence is neither here nor there as these dogs obviously have the more sensitive instruments then modern day forensic techniques... Especially after the dogs went in a significant time after the May 3rd so its hard to draw any conclusions either way from no foresnsics found don't you think?

Although I was under the impression that some forensics were found and I know some forensics even got contaminated when sent to UK for anyalsis? Although whether that was recovered because of the dog alerts I do not know...

A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why - ...

Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -

When was the DNA deposited - 
How was the DNA deposited - 
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from - 
Was a crime committed -

These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance

kind regards
John

John Lowe Forensic Scientist
Major Incidents Team
Priory House
Inter Facility: 703 6973
External: 0121 607 69730121 607 6973
Fax: 0121 6221807

This was the passage of the report which led Amaral to accuse the FSS of contaminating the samples.  And this man was the coordinator in the case of a missing little girl?  Poor Madeleine. 

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #203 on: October 08, 2014, 02:23:33 PM »
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why - ...

Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -

When was the DNA deposited - 
How was the DNA deposited - 
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from - 
Was a crime committed -

These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance

kind regards
John

John Lowe Forensic Scientist
Major Incidents Team
Priory House
Inter Facility: 703 6973
External: 0121 607 69730121 607 6973
Fax: 0121 6221807

This was the passage of the report which led Amaral to accuse the FSS of contaminating the samples.  And this man was the coordinator in the case of a missing little girl?  Poor Madeleine.

Those who distrust the FSS just have to trust Eddie.

He never alerted to the boot of the car, despite being directed to that area of the car and, at one point, squatting for several seconds under the boot.

Then he got up and wandered off, only to be called back again by Grime.

But he never alerted to the boot.

Of course, Keela did, and Keela alerts, only, to human blood.

So either there was blood in the mix recovered from the boot (in which case, Eddie should have alerted, too).

Or there wasn't (in which case, neither dog should have alerted.)

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #204 on: October 08, 2014, 03:51:27 PM »
Those who distrust the FSS just have to trust Eddie.

He never alerted to the boot of the car, despite being directed to that area of the car and, at one point, squatting for several seconds under the boot.

Then he got up and wandered off, only to be called back again by Grime.

But he never alerted to the boot.

Of course, Keela did, and Keela alerts, only, to human blood.

So either there was blood in the mix recovered from the boot (in which case, Eddie should have alerted, too).

Or there wasn't (in which case, neither dog should have alerted.)

So Keela alerted but Eddie didn't...false alert proved

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #205 on: October 08, 2014, 03:55:09 PM »
Those who distrust the FSS just have to trust Eddie.

He never alerted to the boot of the car, despite being directed to that area of the car and, at one point, squatting for several seconds under the boot.

Then he got up and wandered off, only to be called back again by Grime.

But he never alerted to the boot.

Of course, Keela did, and Keela alerts, only, to human blood.

So either there was blood in the mix recovered from the boot (in which case, Eddie should have alerted, too).

Or there wasn't (in which case, neither dog should have alerted.)

I think false assumptions were made because of the video ... we had shots of a spaniel 'alerting'at the car door immediately followed by a spaniel 'alerting' in the boot.  It was not intended that the casual observer would note that it was two different spaniels ... sufficient to get the myth off the ground with some still believing the VRD alerted in the boot.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #206 on: October 08, 2014, 04:09:51 PM »
I think false assumptions were made because of the video ... we had shots of a spaniel 'alerting'at the car door immediately followed by a spaniel 'alerting' in the boot.  It was not intended that the casual observer would note that it was two different spaniels ... sufficient to get the myth off the ground with some still believing the VRD alerted in the boot.

Presumably the written account in the Archiving Document is correct?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #207 on: October 08, 2014, 04:20:04 PM »
Presumably the written account in the Archiving Document is correct?

What do you think?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #208 on: October 08, 2014, 04:23:23 PM »
What do you think?

I have no basis for an opinion I just wondered what yours was.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #209 on: October 08, 2014, 04:50:11 PM »
I have no basis for an opinion I just wondered what yours was.

You mean you haven't been reading my posts ???

                                   I am ... devestated, or somefink ...   8)><(
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....