Author Topic: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...  (Read 58339 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #210 on: October 08, 2014, 04:51:44 PM »
You mean you haven't been reading my posts ???

                                   I am ... devastated, or somefink ...   8)><(
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #211 on: October 08, 2014, 05:03:16 PM »
You mean you haven't been reading my posts ???

                                   I am ... devestated, or somefink ...   8)><(

I have read your posts but it would be a gross impertinence of me to put words in your mouth. I thought you may like to give precis of whether you consider the Archiving Report to be accurate vis a vis the section on the dog alerts just so I am not confused or relying on my own interpretation.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2014, 05:30:19 PM »
I have read your posts but it would be a gross impertinence of me to put words in your mouth. I thought you may like to give precis of whether you consider the Archiving Report to be accurate vis a vis the section on the dog alerts just so I am not confused or relying on my own interpretation.

Are you incapable of reading and making up your own mind on the conclusions reached in the archiving report;  if you have an opinion on them, do make it.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2014, 05:37:56 PM »
So Keela alerted but Eddie didn't...false alert proved

Keela alerted inside the boot not outside. She has to get real close to alert to microscopic blood. This would rather prove that Eddie detected cadaver scent coming out from the car and that was the scent he was chasing in the underground car park. The boot was reported to be left open at the villa every time the witness turned her car around so she reported it and it wasn't followed up.

"The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific compounds' and mixes. The interpretation of any alert is given when the dogs recognize a specific odour as a result of a response to the behaviour for which they were trained. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark." (MG)
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2014, 06:03:03 PM »
Are you incapable of reading and making up your own mind on the conclusions reached in the archiving report;  if you have an opinion on them, do make it.
Oh sorry! I did not make myself plain; 'twas your opinion I asked for and you have not made that plain.
In answer to your first question I am incapable of most things without being directed by my sensei.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2014, 06:04:18 PM »
Keela alerted inside the boot not outside. She has to get real close to alert to microscopic blood. This would rather prove that Eddie detected cadaver scent coming out from the car and that was the scent he was chasing in the underground car park. The boot was reported to be left open at the villa every time the witness turned her car around so she reported it and it wasn't followed up.

"The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site. Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific compounds' and mixes. The interpretation of any alert is given when the dogs recognize a specific odour as a result of a response to the behaviour for which they were trained. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark." (MG)

You don't quite seem to have grasped the fundamentals.

Eddie alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key (which was reacted to by both Eddie and Keela, the reason it was sent to the FSS).

Keela alerted to the boot.

Eddie didn't.

A mix from the boot was sent to the FSS.

So either the mix from the boot contained a component of blood (in which case, both dogs should have reacted to it).

Or the mix from the boot didn't contain a component of blood.

(In which case, neither dog should have reacted).

Offline Brietta

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2014, 06:33:32 PM »
Oh sorry! I did not make myself plain; 'twas your opinion I asked for and you have not made that plain.
In answer to your first question I am incapable of most things without being directed by my sensei.

If you read my posts you will be aware that my opinions are formed from a variety of sources; I am not going to precis the archiving report one reason being I think your request that I do so a diversion and an impertinance.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #217 on: October 08, 2014, 06:36:12 PM »
You don't quite seem to have grasped the fundamentals.

Eddie alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key (which was reacted to by both Eddie and Keela, the reason it was sent to the FSS).

Keela alerted to the boot.

Eddie didn't.

A mix from the boot was sent to the FSS.

So either the mix from the boot contained a component of blood (in which case, both dogs should have reacted to it).

Or the mix from the boot didn't contain a component of blood.

(In which case, neither dog should have reacted).

And you don't understand Martin Grime's professional opinion.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #218 on: October 08, 2014, 07:55:03 PM »
And you don't understand Martin Grime's professional opinion.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

could you tell me what he means by suggestive

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2014, 08:00:42 PM »
And you don't understand Martin Grime's professional opinion.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

Oh, I understand, right enough.

I could tell you exactly what that unwarranted comment was all about.

But I shan't.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #220 on: October 08, 2014, 08:12:25 PM »
Oh, I understand, right enough.

I could tell you exactly what that unwarranted comment was all about.

But I shan't.

Please enlighten me?
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #221 on: October 08, 2014, 08:17:14 PM »
Please enlighten me?

The clue is in the last sentence of my previous post.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #222 on: October 08, 2014, 08:27:39 PM »
The clue is in the last sentence of my previous post.

The key was buried in sand. Why?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 08:34:46 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline lordpookles

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #223 on: October 08, 2014, 08:38:21 PM »
It suggest that there is cadaver odour at the apartment of course. These dogs have a very good track record too. Just because they alert somewhere and no material is founds means nothing of course as our forensic technology is simply not as advanced as these dogs noses. Of course we should likely expect some mistakes/false alerts  imo but this was a lot of alerts. Also the fact that Keela alerted and Eddie did not does not necessarily mean a false alert. It could simply mean that Eddie this time did not pick up on the scent. Anyway, I don't understand why you guys are so quick to attempt to discredit the dogs or Grimes. Just because there was a cadaver odour at the apartment does not necessarily place the blame at the McCanns doorstep imo... If we can't even hypothetically discuss why this odour may be at the apartment then it's very hard to see how we can have a sensible discussion...

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...
« Reply #224 on: October 08, 2014, 08:57:32 PM »
It suggest that there is cadaver odour at the apartment of course. These dogs have a very good track record too. Just because they alert somewhere and no material is founds means nothing of course as our forensic technology is simply not as advanced as these dogs noses. Of course we should likely expect some mistakes/false alerts  imo but this was a lot of alerts. Also the fact that Keela alerted and Eddie did not does not necessarily mean a false alert. It could simply mean that Eddie this time did not pick up on the scent. Anyway, I don't understand why you guys are so quick to attempt to discredit the dogs or Grimes. Just because there was a cadaver odour at the apartment does not necessarily place the blame at the McCanns doorstep imo... If we can't even hypothetically discuss why this odour may be at the apartment then it's very hard to see how we can have a sensible discussion...

I'm not discrediting anyone...grime says its suggestive...it does not confirm...therefore it is possible there is no cadaver odour at the scene