The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...

[Benice]

You really believe nobody bled in any other apartments? Keela doesn't sniff every inch of every apartment for obvious reasons. She is only used once Eddie finds evidence of death.

Keela was used by Grime as a means of clarifying whether Eddie had alerted to blood or cadaverscent.    If both dogs alerted at the same place Grime assumed a blood detection, if Keela did not alert then Grime assumed cadaver scent contaminant -  but which may be there for a variety of reasons - only one of which was the presence of a dead body. 

IIRC -  In the videos when Keela alerts Grime says she has alerted to blood.  When Eddie alerts Grime does not say he has alerted to a cadaver - he says that Eddie has alerted to ''the things he has been trained to alert to''. 

That is because without corroborating evidence he cannot know that Eddie specifically alerted to a cadaver - only that he had alerted to the scent of decomposing bodily cellular material -  which may have come from a dead body but also from a living person.

[lordpookles]

An interesting Q&A with a Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog expert supposedly here related to another case:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?152258-Human-Remains-(*cadaver)-Detection-(HRD)-dog-questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**

And just scanning this massive thread on the first page quite a relevant question is answered. Here it is:

Are there any fluids that come out during vomiting (bile and other stomach fluids, plus whatever she ate) that would begin to decompose on the carpet, and cause a "hit?"
No, not with the training I am comfortable backing. And not with dogs that are NASAR or FEMA certified.

It's not so much that it comes out and decomposes, it's that it comes out already decomposing that makes a difference.

[ferryman]

Keela was used by Grime as a means of clarifying whether Eddie had alerted to blood or cadaverscent.    If both dogs alerted at the same place Grime assumed a blood detection, if Keela did not alert then Grime assumed cadaver scent contaminant -  but which may be there for a variety of reasons - only one of which was the presence of a dead body. 

IIRC -  In the videos when Keela alerts Grime says she has alerted to blood.  When Eddie alerts Grime does not say he has alerted to a cadaver - he says that Eddie has alerted to ''the things he has been trained to alert to''. 

That is because without corroborating evidence he cannot know that Eddie specifically alerted to a cadaver - only that he had alerted to the scent of decomposing bodily cellular material -  which may have come from a dead body but also from a living person.

A potential added complication is that when Eddie has been repeatedly directed and re-directed back to the same place he has already past countless times, he might simply have got fed up ...

[misty]

A potential added complication is that when Eddie has been repeatedly directed and re-directed back to the same place he has already past countless times, he might simply have got fed up ...

I think it was rather like the Scottish Independence referendum - you have to keep repeating the exercise until you get the right outcome.

[ferryman]

I think it was rather like the Scottish Independence referendum - you have to keep repeating the exercise until you get the right outcome.

Brilliant analogy ...

[Eleanor]

One of the American Police Dog Handlers in The Casey Anthony Case said in Court that Cadaver Dogs will alert to decomposing body fluids from live people if there is no corpse or actual cadaver odour from a corpse that had been previously removed.

[Brietta]

One of the American Police Dog Handlers in The Casey Anthony Case said in Court that Cadaver Dogs will alert to decomposing body fluids from live people if there is no corpse or actual cadaver odour from a corpse that had been previously removed.

There is ongoing research in the USA which may very well lead to the use of dogs trained on pig flesh being called into question by the defence.

There are many studies being carried out at the moment to give a better understanding of the abilities of all working dogs including VRDs and how they can be better used ... the parameters are constantly in flux.

[slartibartfast]

There is ongoing research in the USA which may very well lead to the use of dogs trained on pig flesh being called into question by the defence.

There are many studies being carried out at the moment to give a better understanding of the abilities of all working dogs including VRDs and how they can be better used ... the parameters are constantly in flux.

It's amazing how easy it is to cast doubt on things, when some people do it they get called vile names.

[Brietta]

It's amazing how easy it is to cast doubt on things, when some people do it they get called vile names.

May I respectfully suggest you refrain from making such an idiot of yourself; there is actually a lot of very interesting information on the net regarding working dogs, their handlers and the constantly evolving training methods used, particularly in the USA.  Perhaps you should educate yourself by reading up on that.

[slartibartfast]

May I respectfully suggest you refrain from making such an idiot of yourself; there is actually a lot of very interesting information on the net regarding working dogs, their handlers and the constantly evolving training methods used, particularly in the USA.  Perhaps you should educate yourself by reading up on that.

Perhaps you should stop trying to discredit an experienced dog handler working for the UK police.

[Brietta]

Perhaps you should stop trying to smear an experienced dog handler working for the UK police.

How dare you. Do not judge my standards by yours.

Show me where I have 'smeared' Martin Grime.  Either find it and provide the link or withdraw your lie.

[slartibartfast]

How dare you. Do not judge my standards by yours.

Show me where I have 'smeared' Martin Grime.  Either find it and provide the link or withdraw your lie.

There is ongoing research in the USA which may very well lead to the use of dogs trained on pig flesh being called into question by the defence.

You are suggesting that his knowledge of cadaver dogs is wrong based on the attempts of a defence lawyer to discredit evidence against a client.

The dogs are the key element of this case.

Changed smear to discredit.

[Brietta]

You are suggesting that his knowledge of cadaver dogs is wrong based on the attempts of a defence lawyer to discredit evidence against a client.

The dogs are the key element of this case.

Changed smear to discredit.

[ comment removed as insulting ]
 
 “You are suggesting that his knowledge of cadaver dogs is wrong based on the attempts of a defence lawyer to discredit evidence against a client.” 
I made no such suggestion … I made a statement of fact based on studies I have read … what you have read into it is nonsensical.  By law British dogs cannot have access to human remains for training purposes
On-going research into volatile organic compounds (VOCs) of decomposing animal and human tissues were analysed and compared and it was discovered that the VOC signatures of the different species analysed differed; the description of the differences between pig and human remains was considered of particular import because of VRD training using pig.
The research concluded that
pig VOC signatures shared  only seven of 30 human-specific compounds
nine unique compounds in pig VOC signatures were not found in human samples.

"The dogs are the key element of this case."   
No they are not either in this or any other case … and I’m not going to waste my time explaining  why not, because if you haven’t understood the many succinct arguments already put forward it is either because you are obtuse or because you simply do not want to, as so many other false beliefs hinge on “the scent of death”.

"Changed smear to discredit."   
Now that is a classic. Is that what you consider withdrawing your allegation?  WOW! 
It is not possible for someone with my limited knowledge to either ‘smear’ or ‘discredit’ a professional dog handler.  If you think for a minute that Martin Grime, who I believe is still involved in training other handlers, isn’t keeping himself up to speed with all studies and developments in his field … you delude yourself.

You lack the character to admit you can find nothing which I have said which substantiates your accusation, I knew you could not because I have done no such thing.   
Just an indication of the ill informed innuendos you have used to smear and discredit me without a single fact to back it up. 
Where else have these tactics been used to effect over the past seven years?  So transparent! 

[colombosstogey]

oh goodness we are not still on that same page trying to discredit the dogs findings, and pig use blah blah blah, de blah.

The dogs are highly trained they find dead bodies. IF they never found a dead body fair play lol, but they do at a huge percentage.

They can now be trained to alert people to cancer, and if they are going into diabetes shock.

Some of these dogs are far more intelligent then some humans lol.....

[Brietta]

oh goodness we are not still on that same page trying to discredit the dogs findings, and pig use blah blah blah, de blah.

The dogs are highly trained they find dead bodies. IF they never found a dead body fair play lol, but they do at a huge percentage.

They can now be trained to alert people to cancer, and if they are going into diabetes shock.

Some of these dogs are far more intelligent then some humans lol.....

It is never going to penetrate that  it is impossible “to discredit the dogs’ findings” for the very simple reason that apart from some blood spots – none of which were Madeleine McCann’s – the dogs found NOTHING.

I know what dogs can do and I know there are studies taking place to try to understand and expand how and why they do it …and I know that advances in knowledge are being made constantly. 

There is no doubt they are infinitely more intelligent than those humans running around wearing the tee shirts printed with ‘Dogs Don’t Lie!’