The dogs, cadaver odour, cross contamination etc...

[Jean-Pierre]

Getting a bit heated it seems.

In their capicaity as VRD the dogs are clearly a key element.  Because such a search is binary - either a victim is found or it isnt found.

But in a case such as this the dogs are not a key element.  Their highly developed sense of smell makes them a very effective tool for pinpointing the location of forensic material, which can be analysed and hard evidence provided.  It is the forensic evidence which is the key element.  Grime makes this point very clearly.

In scientific investigations as much (sometimes more) can be learned from experiemts which failed as from successful ones. 

It could be argued that if an exhaustive search by such an effective locator tool fails to find forensic material then it suggests that forensic material does not exist, and therefore that other avenues need to be investiagted. 
 

[ferryman]

Getting a bit heated it seems.

In their capicaity as VRD the dogs are clearly a key element.  Because such a search is binary - either a victim is found or it isnt found.

But in a case such as this the dogs are not a key element.  Their highly developed sense of smell makes them a very effective tool for pinpointing the location of forensic material, which can be analysed and hard evidence provided.  It is the forensic evidence which is the key element.  Grime makes this point very clearly.

In scientific investigations as much (sometimes more) can be learned from experiemts which failed as from successful ones. 

It could be argued that if an exhaustive search by such an effective locator tool fails to find forensic material then it suggests that forensic material does not exist, and therefore that other avenues need to be investiagted. 
 

In respect of the specific deployment at PdL, Mark Harrison's report bears close scrutiiny.

It says a lot about his opinion of the way the dogs were deployed.

There is also a highly revelatory detail of  the inspection in the gym, recorded by the PJ.

[Alice Purjorick]

oh goodness we are not still on that same page trying to discredit the dogs findings, and pig use blah blah blah, de blah.

The dogs are highly trained they find dead bodies. IF they never found a dead body fair play lol, but they do at a huge percentage.

They can now be trained to alert people to cancer, and if they are going into diabetes shock.

Some of these dogs are far more intelligent then some humans lol.....

'fraid so. And we are getting kin close to Gilera, Lambretta, Giletta or whatever her name is telling us she was a high ranking civil servant who "knows" or has access to BBC files and we are all cretins cos we don't know A from a bull's foot.
Hey ho it ever was thus.
Tune in next week.
Grab a line.

[ferryman]

'fraid so. And we are getting kin close to Gilera, Lambretta, Giletta or whatever her name is telling us she was a high ranking civil servant who "knows" or has access to BBC files and we are all cretins cos we don't know A from a bull's foot.
Hey ho it ever was thus.
Tune in next week.
Grab a line.

The phrase dogs' findings discredits itself.

There is no such thing, unless you visit some murky backwater such as the US forensic canine program set-up

[slartibartfast]

'fraid so. And we are getting kin close to Gilera, Lambretta, Giletta or whatever her name is telling us she was a high ranking civil servant who "knows" or has access to BBC files and we are all cretins cos we don't know A from a bull's foot.
Hey ho it ever was thus.
Tune in next week.
Grab a line.

Yup, I'm sure if their smoke detectors went off but they couldn't find a fire, they would go back to bed.

[slartibartfast]

The phrase dogs' findings discredits itself.

There is no such thing, unless you visit some murky backwater such as the US forensic canine program set-up

Oh yes, that backwater that is the FBI.

[ferryman]

I was asked for evidence of how Grime disregarded protocols of his profession in deployment of his dogs.

I can provide evidence from the files to back up all I say.

In his rogatory interview, Grime was asked about cross-contamination.

He replied that it is immediate.

It is!

Yet clothes were transported to the gym in bulk-standard cardborad boxes, rendering cross-contamination, if it was going to occur, inevitable.

Not that it mattered, because the inspection coming 3 months after the crime, cross-contamination, if it was going to occur, would long since already have done so.

The wider question is, what was the point of the exercise?

We know that Eddie reacted to a deposit on the ignition key of the car from which Gerry's DNA was extracted.  It was presumably blood, because Keela reacted to it, and she isn't trained to react to anything else.

If there was an innocent scent in the Renault, there might easily have been innocent scents in any of the other cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.

Mark Harrison waited until after both inspections at the gym and at the villa before issuing PJ personnel with translated  NPIA instructions on how to conduct searches in builidings and vehicles.

In the inspection of the gym, we are told that both dogs conducted prior reconnoitres to eliminate pre-existing scents.

Yet there was no gap between completion of the reconnoitres and commencement of the searches, suggesting that the clothes were laid out before the reconnoitres.

So what was the point of the reconnoitres?

And why wasn't any apparent scent detected during the reconnoitres?

[pathfinder73]

I was asked for evidence of how Grime disregarded protocols of his profession in deployment of his dogs.

I can provide evidence from the files to back up all I say.

In his rogatory interview, Grime was asked about cross-contamination.

He replied that it is immediate.

It is!

Yet clothes were transported to the gym in bulk-standard cardborad boxes, rendering cross-contamination, if it was going to occur, inevitable.

Not that it mattered, because the inspection coming 3 months after the crime, cross-contamination, if it was going to occur, would long since already have done so.

The wider question is, what was the point of the exercise?

We know that Eddie reacted to a deposit on the ignition key of the car from which Gerry's DNA was extracted.  It was presumably blood, because Keela reacted to it, and she isn't trained to react to anything else.

If there was an innocent scent in the Renault, there might easily have been innocent scents in any of the other cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.

Mark Harrison waited until after both inspections at the gym and at the villa before issuing PJ personnel with translated  NPIA instructions on how to conduct searches in builidings and vehicles.

In the inspection of the gym, we are told that both dogs conducted prior reconnoitres to eliminate pre-existing scents.

Yet there was no gap between completion of the reconnoitres and commencement of the searches, suggesting that the clothes were laid out before the reconnoitres.

So what was the point of the reconnoitres?

And why wasn't any apparent scent detected during the reconnoitres?

Why weren't other clothes contaminated? Eddie picked the mother's and child's top and their apartment and car. How many alerts do you want Ferryman? The mother and children were alone when Gerry left for tennis at 6pm. Until Mr Payne paid a visit.

"Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in." (DP)

Strange Kate knew he was at tennis.

[ferryman]

Mark Hrrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.

Both inspections at the villa and at the gym summarised as PJ holding exercises

Only in those inspections Harrison recommended is UK involvement acknowledged: the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murat's place.

That's it!

And note those instructions issued to PJ personnel ....

[Brietta]

Yup, I'm sure if their smoke detectors went off but they couldn't find a fire, they would go back to bed.

I’m not sure that is a terribly apt analogy ... however.

You may be unaware that smoke detectors can be set off by dust particles as well as smoke which is why they are covered during installation and why it is a very good idea to cover them when you have builders in who are making dust.

If they go off during the night but no fire is found, I think the procedure would be to discover what was setting them off and address that. 

Just as when a VRD alerts and they can’t find a body the procedure is to have the area checked forensically to find out what the dog is alerting to.

Smoke detector goes off – find out what is causing it to go off particularly if there is no sign of fire – and address the problem; only once you have carried out the proper procedures would it be safe to return to bed.

VRD alerts – find out what is causing it to alert particularly if there are no evident human remains around.

Bearing in mind that if it is possible the smoke detector can go off without a naked flame … it is possible that a VRD can alert in an area where there has never been a body.

[ferryman]

Why weren't other clothes contaminated? Eddie picked the mother's and child's top and their apartment and their car. How many alerts do you want Ferryman? The mother and children were alone when Gerry left for tennis at 6pm. Until Mr Payne paid a visit.

"Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in." (DP)

No trained dog attending a crime scene should ever pick stuff up in its mouth.

[Brietta]

The clothes that were alerted to were in a box which had come from the rented apartment which was inspected by the dogs while the clothing was in situ … wonder why the VRD ignored them in that location?

[ferryman]

The clothes that were alerted to were in a box which had come from the rented apartment which was inspected by the dogs while the clothing was in situ … wonder why the VRD ignored them in that location?

I'm delighted that you consistently omit the erroneous "E" for "Enhanced", Brietta.

That was an (extra) title bestowed upon Eddie by Grime, that ceased to exist (worldwide) when Eddie died.

[pathfinder73]

IMO those clothes were not being worn at all on that evening.
I do not understand why people assume people must be wearing them that evening.
However it seems likely they had been worn at some previous time during the 6 days.
From that it is fairly easy to deduce their exact constant location that entire evening.

How do you know they weren't wearing them? Kate was always wearing those pants. She didn't stay in her sweaty jogging gear that's for sure.

[pegasus]

Because it fits, pathfinder. Fits with the PJ photo of the wardrobe.