The Smith sighting revisited.

[Alfred R Jones]

Bag connects to the crime unless you get rid of it. There were rumours of the PJ looking for a missing bag and Amaral said Mark Harrison suggested a bag could be used to conceal away from the crime scene. This could be an hour earlier than the Smithman sighting. An hour earlier is my theory.

So your theory is Smithman takes the body out of Apartment 5a in a bag, then later takes child out of bag to carry though the street uncovered?  So what happened to the bag then? 

[pathfinder73]

So your theory is Smithman takes the body out of Apartment 5a in a bag, then later takes child out of bag to carry though the street uncovered?  So what happened to the bag then? 

Mark Harrison suggested it to conceal away from the crime scene so it's a possibility. If used, bag could be dumped in bin (not my opinion), long sleeves could be in bin. Why they never took the cadaver dogs to the landflll or check the bins is strange. It's risky unless the bag was brought back and not missing (my opinion) because if they found evidence of a bag being missing and not reported then you know who would be in deep shiii....

[faithlilly]

It would have been foolhardy to move the body in a bag because the body, especially if it was bleeding, would deposit forensic traces which, if found later, could tie the perpetrators to the crime.

Carrying the body in a bag was never an option imo.

[Mr Moderator]

It would have been foolhardy to move the body in a bag because the body, especially if it was bleeding, would deposit forensic traces which, if found later, could tie the perpetrators to the crime.

Carrying the body in a bag was never an option imo.

Regardless of who suggested a bag might have been used there is no evidence to support it so can we please avoid speculations and get back to the Smith sightings.

[sadie]

It would have been foolhardy to move the body in a bag because the body, especially if it was bleeding, would deposit forensic traces which, if found later, could tie the perpetrators to the crime.

Carrying the body in a bag was never an option imo.

Whether in a bag or not, forensic traces would be left, especially if bleeding  and could tie the perpetrators to the crime.

But we are thinking about The Smiths sighting here.  No bag here.

[faithlilly]

Whether in a bag or not, forensic traces would be left, especially if bleeding  and could tie the perpetrators to the crime.

But we are thinking about The Smiths sighting here.  No bag here.

Forensic traces or blood could have also been deposited innocently in the apartment ( I believe Gerry claimed Madeleine suffered from nosebleeds ).

Blood in a bag would be a little more difficult to explain.

[sadie]

Forensic traces or blood could have also been deposited innocently in the apartment ( I believe Gerry claimed Madeleine suffered from nosebleeds ).

Blood in a bag would be a little more difficult to explain.

As would Madeleines cadavar blood on a shirt or a pair of trousers.

Forget the bag, Faith. 
We are talking about The Smiths sighting here.  To remind you, they saw a man carrying a little ?sleeping girl.  No bag.

[Brietta]

Nothing seems to have been ‘urgent’ where the Smith sighting of the man carrying a child was concerned.

Neither is there any certainty about the time of the sighting or even the night it may have occurred. 
One only has to refer to Carol Tranmer’s statement for an illustration of how far a person’s recollection of the timing of a particular event can be out.

If the CCTV hadn’t been wiped at the hotel Estrela da Luz, it would have been possible to ascertain the time at which the family returned home on the 3rd May.

Perhaps they would have been remembered in Kelly’s bar if the staff had been asked about it on the 4th May as opposed to the 10th October, or even if they had a copy of the receipt which tallied with the printouts given to the PJ on that date (10th Oct), which would have enabled it to be established which payment might have been theirs.



On October 10th Kelly’s bar was visited

12 Processos Vol XII Pages 3276 to 3280


 12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3276
 
 12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3277
 

External Inquiry

 Date 10 ' 10 ' 2007

 Place: Kelly's Bar, P da L

 Inquiry carried out by Inspectors Rui Fernandes and Ricardo Paiva

 Description and results of Inquiry

 On this date at about 15.00 we went to Kelly's Bar, located in Rua da Calheta, in Praia da Luz. At the site we were received by an employee of the bar identified as L***** A**** M**** who had been on duty on the night of 3rd May 2007.

 When questioned whether on the night in question she remembered the visit to the bar by witness Martin Smith and his family, she replied that she does not remember given the lapse of time between the events and because the bar is daily frequented by dozens of clients of different nationalities.

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

 Signed

 Ricardo Paiva

[faithlilly]

As would Madeleines cadavar blood on a shirt or a pair of trousers.

Forget the bag, Faith. 
We are talking about The Smiths sighting here.  To remind you, they saw a man carrying a little ?sleeping girl.  No bag.

We were discussing why Smithman carried the child openly when the body could have been secreted in a bag. I am suggesting if Smithman was Gerry there were reasons why it would have been unwise for him to use a bag.

[Alice Purjorick]

Not being scientifically minded, being more sort of hammers and spanners and legal I wonder about the effects of rigor mortis?
Isn't there some kind of process going from primary flaccidity to rigor mortis back to a state of laxity which should be factored into any theories?

[pegasus]

As would Madeleines cadavar blood on a shirt or a pair of trousers.

Forget the bag, Faith. 
We are talking about The Smiths sighting here.  To remind you, they saw a man carrying a little ?sleeping girl.  No bag.

Certainly not awake - one of the witnesses saw closed eyelids.

[pathfinder73]

4135 to 4139 Additional statement from Martin Smith 2008.01.30 (English)

16-Processos, Volume XVI, pg 4134 to 4139

Detective Branch
Drogheda
County Lough

Re – Investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

I took an additional statement from Mr Smith as requested. His wife does not want to make another statement. I showed him the video clip and he stated that it was not the clip that alerted him but the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007.

He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor's letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment.

I do not believe that Martin Smith is courting the press and my view his is a genuine person. He is known locally and is a very decent person.

Forwarded please

Sergeant

Liam Hogan

I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and that I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if i state in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

I would like to state that the statement I made on 26th May 2007 in Portugal is correct. The description of the individual that I saw on 3rd May 2007 carrying a child is as follows. He was average build, 5 foot 10' in height, brown hair cut short, aged 40 years approximately. Wearing beige trousers and darkish top maybe a jacket or blazer. He had a full head of hair with a tight cut. This individual was alone. I saw Gerard McCann (sic) going down the plane stairs carrying one of his children on 9th September 2007 BBC news at 10 PM, I have been shown the video clip by Sergeant Hogan which I recognise. A clip I have seen before on the Internet. In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.

[sadie]

Not being scientifically minded, being more sort of hammers and spanners and legal I wonder about the effects of rigor mortis?
Isn't there some kind of process going from primary flaccidity to rigor mortis back to a state of laxity which should be factored into any theories?

Why have all the posts informing about the way the face changes colour and the blood goes doiwn to the feet, when someone dies, gone?  IIRC within half an hour?  And turning the feet red as they fill with blood.

Also the relaxation of muscles caused bowel evacuation and the person to wet themselves


Please can they be reposted;

They were very interesting and it seems proved that the little girl was alive when the Smiths saw her


Where have they gone ?



ETA

Thank you Anna [Anna, the magic finder of all things lost !]

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5535.msg198894#msg198894

[pathfinder73]

Cutting Edge reconstruction incorrect carrying style and 21:50



Smith family not spread out



This is more like it. Positions when he passed.



Gimme some Truth!

"As he reached this artery, he saw an individual carrying a child, who walked normally and fitted in perfectly in that area, in that it is common to see people carrying children, at least during the holiday season. States also that when he passed this individual he was coming down the middle of the road, in the street, also that at that time traffic is minimal or non-existent." (MS)

He didn't need a bag/bundle Peggy when he wouldn't stand out open carrying. Truth is not set in stone!

[ferryman]

We were discussing why Smithman carried the child openly when the body could have been secreted in a bag. I am suggesting if Smithman was Gerry there were reasons why it would have been unwise for him to use a bag.

There is no evidence of Smith-man being Gerry.

Martin Smith long ago recanted of that view.