Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?

[Heriberto Janosch]

I am returning from Praia da Luz now. Today a misty day ...

I were not searching the manholes, but have got new info that I have to analyze to see if it can be relevant.

But following the old clues (Burglary + OC employee), I was in block 5, and in Luztur building.

Luztur building is a labyrinth, full of small apartments. Who were living there in 2007? I remember the PJ investigating from the 4th. floor to the top, IIRC. But from the 1st. to the 3rd. floor is a world ...

[Anna]

SC?  I presume you mean SY.  If you mean SY, they definitely did not check the areas that were dug on 3rd May.  The two areas being worked on then were Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista and Rua Direita.

SY checked the mound, to the west of Rua Primeiro de Maio, and did look down some manholes there.  The two other areas checked were a little way outside of Luz to the east, but I think those were surface checks only.

Yes I did mean SY,  sorry about that. It seems the sewage was checked in some areas, but not flood drains?  It's not only a possibility of a child falling into one of those drains, but also of the child being hidden there by a  person who may have removed her from 5 A.
SY would not be checking unused, sewage pipes in wasteland, unless this was also a possibility, they had considered.
I do appreciate metric measurements in "The old money" .
I only use metric, when I have too, but it still makes it harder to visualise, until it is converted to feet and inches.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Wouldn't a competent police force pursue several lines of enquiry simultaneously and seek to validate or invalidate potential evidence as the investigation advanced?

Short answer Yes!...there was too much going on. If it was in the UK the parents would have been held and questioned immediately. Crime scene would have been cordened off.  The investigaiton would be instant. All theories would be considered and illiminated quicker I believe.

I also believe the parents strange behaviour baffled the PJ.

[Brietta]

I am returning from Praia da Luz now. Today a misty day ...

I were not searching the manholes, but have got new info that I have to analyze to see if it can be relevant.

But following the old clues (Burglary + OC employee), I was in block 5, and in Luztur building.

Luztur building is a labyrinth, full of small apartments. Who were living there in 2007? I remember the PJ investigating from the 4th. floor to the top, IIRC. But from the 1st. to the 3rd. floor is a world ...

The gate looks far more secure and stronger than it did in the 2007 photographs. 

[ShiningInLuz]

Knowing that a 700/750 pipe can be laid in a 900/950 wide trench could leave your name in the frame!

Lucky I was in the UK in May 2007 and never set foot in Luz until Feb 2012!

By the way, don't think of UK type standards re trench-digging and trench filling.  About the second week of Jan 2015, without any advance warning whatsoever, workmen started digging up Rua de Cemitério, starting at the eastern end.  Water was cut off without notice and people whose car drives went onto the road were cut off, with no way in/out.  The trench is roughly of Madeleine-type width and depth.  They went 3/4 of the way along the road before they started back-filling.  The eastern end still has open holes and access is still denied.  I don't know if they have actually reached the western end yet.

The folks who lived through the 2007 upgrades say it was similarly chaotic, and disposal via the drains is seen as quite likely.  (Whether that is what happened or not.)

[Brietta]

Lucky I was in the UK in May 2007 and never set foot in Luz until Feb 2012!

By the way, don't think of UK type standards re trench-digging and trench filling.  About the second week of Jan 2015, without any advance warning whatsoever, workmen started digging up Rua de Cemitério, starting at the eastern end.  Water was cut off without notice and people whose car drives went onto the road were cut off, with no way in/out.  The trench is roughly of Madeleine-type width and depth.  They went 3/4 of the way along the road before they started back-filling.  The eastern end still has open holes and access is still denied.  I don't know if they have actually reached the western end yet.

The folks who lived through the 2007 upgrades say it was similarly chaotic, and disposal via the drains is seen as quite likely.  (Whether that is what happened or not.)

One doesn't have to be in Portugal to risk ending up in a hole in the process of public works being carried out ... your description mirrors exactly what happens in my neck of the woods.

From what I have read the choices for deliberate disposal are drains, road works, abandoned farm wells, under a new build (patio, dwelling, swimming pool) or the sea.

Despite it being obvious to the inhabitants of PDL in 2007 that the works disruption might have provided the answer to what happened to Madeleine, even if a search had been carried out I think it would have required a fingertip search of the most obvious areas.

Aisling Symes was discovered some 35 metres from the drain entrance where she fell in.

[Alice Purjorick]

One doesn't have to be in Portugal to risk ending up in a hole in the process of public works being carried out ... your description mirrors exactly what happens in my neck of the woods.

From what I have read the choices for deliberate disposal are drains, road works, abandoned farm wells, under a new build (patio, dwelling, swimming pool) or the sea.

Despite it being obvious to the inhabitants of PDL in 2007 that the works disruption might have provided the answer to what happened to Madeleine, even if a search had been carried out I think it would have required a fingertip search of the most obvious areas.

Aisling Symes was discovered some 35 metres from the drain entrance where she fell in.

In Peter Cheyney, Raymond Chandler, Eric Ambler and Jon Cleary novels perchance?

[Anna]

Lucky I was in the UK in May 2007 and never set foot in Luz until Feb 2012!

By the way, don't think of UK type standards re trench-digging and trench filling.  About the second week of Jan 2015, without any advance warning whatsoever, workmen started digging up Rua de Cemitério, starting at the eastern end.  Water was cut off without notice and people whose car drives went onto the road were cut off, with no way in/out.  The trench is roughly of Madeleine-type width and depth.  They went 3/4 of the way along the road before they started back-filling.  The eastern end still has open holes and access is still denied.  I don't know if they have actually reached the western end yet.

The folks who lived through the 2007 upgrades say it was similarly chaotic, and disposal via the drains is seen as quite likely.  (Whether that is what happened or not.)

If disposal or accident was via flood drain, would her remains, not have eventually been washed out and end up wherever these drains empty into?

[Alice Purjorick]

If disposal or accident was via flood drain, would her remains, not have eventually been washed out and end up wherever these drains empty into?

If it were a new storm drain under construction I would expect it to show up on test before the sewer is put into service. I don't know about Luz but on the face of it the logical thing for storm runoff is to have a sea outfall. The discharge point could be kms off shore.   

[Anna]

If it were a new storm drain under construction I would expect it to show up on test before the sewer is put into service. I don't know about Luz but on the face of it the logical thing for storm runoff is to have a sea outfall. The discharge point could be kms off shore.

Thank you Alice. So little chance of discovery then, if so far off shore?

[jassi]

I suppose it would depend upon the prevailing currents and whatever predators might frequent that area.

[Alice Purjorick]

Thank you Alice. So little chance of discovery then, if so far off shore?

IF it is a long sea outfall virtually none as they are designed such that "stuff" is dispersed in the ocean currents and not washed back inshore in the immediate time scale by tides. I don't find the storm drain idea appealing on the grounds the drains will be virtually dry from May til September and a big flush through will not occur til November December. Then there remains the little matter of removing a manhole cover on a drain that must be 450 diameter or greater. I am not saying it is impossible just that it doesn't have a lot going for it as a plan in my opinion.

[Anna]

I suppose it would depend upon the prevailing currents and whatever predators might frequent that area.

Yes Jassi, It is an awful thought, but definitely a consideration.
There is an outlet in PDL well away from the beach, it seems.

[Anna]

IF it is a long sea outfall virtually none as they are designed such that "stuff" is dispersed in the ocean currents and not washed back inshore in the immediate time scale by tides. I don't find the storm drain idea appealing on the grounds the drains will be virtually dry from May til September and a big flush through will not occur til November December. Then there remains the little matter of removing a manhole cover on a drain that must be 450 diameter or greater. I am not saying it is impossible just that it doesn't have a lot going for it as a plan in my opinion.

Thanks Alice,
I see your point but, I am just trying to check all possibilities.
The drains being dry for so long would mean that by the time it started draining, there would be little left to flush out to sea, or wherever. What a gruesome thought! but unfortunately possible.

[ShiningInLuz]

Yes Jassi, It is an awful thought, but definitely a consideration.
There is an outlet in PDL well away from the beach, it seems.

I'm fairly sure that square cut channel is the outlet just to the west of the Bull/Fortaleza.  That's the bright green dot on the left of my graphic. 

As you can see, there is a small beach at that location.  As it happens, 19 times out of 20 the storm drain empties onto the beach, not into the sea.  It is only at extreme high tides that the little beach vanishes under water.  (Most high tides leave a little bit of the little beach exposed.)  This is not a strong contender for body disposal.

The green dot in the middle is the outlet to the south of the Fortaleza.  It empties onto 20 to 30 metres of rocks, so it is definitely no good for body disposal.

The green dot to the east is around where I've read there is another outlet, but it is on a cliff so I'm guessing at precise position.  I am far from certain so please don't quote me, but I believe it empties onto rocks at the bottom of the cliff.  Whether is does or not, it would require unusual tide and wind conditions to wash away from the main beach.

Anna posted a photo earlier of a channel/stream on the west end of the promenade.  That is connected to rainwater disposal also, but as I pointed out earlier, it normally empties into a large depression in the beach, forming a large pond.  Sometimes the sea does connect to the pond, but I can't see remains floating over the depression, into the sea, and then away from the beach.

In summary, I don't see the drains as a 'good' solution (apologies) for Madeleine getting into one herself by accident.