Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[pathfinder73]

IMO  - unless they had some particular reason to do so, (and I can't think of any) -  there would be no reason for anyone crossing the carpark in the dark -  to make a point of peering across at that specific window - which was not in their line of sight.       

IMO in the few seconds it took to cross  - they would be looking ahead in the direction they were going in,  and Jane and Russell in particular would not be thinking about apartment 5A - or Madeleine.   Therefore, imo the fact that people did not notice an open window is no guarantee that it wasn't open.

And look there's a street light by the car park

[misty]

So you believe that Matthew, while saying there was more light in the room than he expected, didn't check the window as he went by to his own apartment, especially as he had seen the shutter closed earlier ?

Matthew had already been to his own apartment before going to the ROB's & then 5a on the 9.30 check. He entered & exited 5a via the rear patio
.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
*snip*
That, on that occasion, ROB and he went to their own residences, to check on their own children. After leaving his apartment he went to that of ROB who opted to stay there to calm his daughter who was crying, that done with the deponent went alone to the McCann apartment. He clarifies that ROB's daughter was ill, with vomiting.

To this end, he took the quickest route between ROB's apartment and the side garden gate entrance to the rear patio of the McCann residence, to which he gained access through the glass sliding door into the apartment lounge. The door was closed but not locked as KM had said it would be.

[sadie]

So you believe that Matthew, while saying there was more light in the room than he expected, didn't check the window as he went by to his own apartment, especially as he had seen the shutter closed earlier ?

First of all it was pretty dark outside that window.  The light from the streetlamps was greatly reduced by the heads of the trees.

It was not in his line of vision as he walked across to middle of the building to join the pathway.  In fact it was outside his periferel vision as describe precisely by Heriberto .. our expert.  Why should he see it?

You give the impression that Matt walked past the window after he left 5A.

That is not true.

His route was. 
1) He left with Russell.  They walked restaurant to apartment via the streets and the pathway; Matt to his apartment and Russell to his via the same route.
2.  After Matt had checked in his own apartment, he went to Russells apartment
3)   Russells little one was poorly so he wasn't returning at that moment.  He let Matt out via the back patio doors.
4)  Matt walked along the alleyway to 5A and entered at the back via the patio door.

After doing his check, he walked straight back to the restaurant.

He did not go anywhere near the bedroom window.  That was on the other side of the building



Soz, Pathfinder but you got it wrong.

[Benice]

And look there's a street light by the car park

The top picture of the entrance to the car park is not relevant IMO as (1) it's taken in daylight and (2) it's not the view that people entering the carpark at the lefthand side of the entrance and then walking diagonally across the carpark away from 5A towards the right would see.

This particular photo shows the view that would be seen by someone entering from a completely different direction to the group and one where 5A would be in their immediate line of sight.    No-one returning from the Tapas took that route -  and so would not have seen that view.

The arial photo which Heri posted -  where he pencils in the route taken across the carpark - in relation to where 5a is - gives an accurate picture of the route taken and what would be in their line of sight,    The photo you have posted does not do that.

But I'm sure you already know that PF.

[Benice]

So you believe that Matthew, while saying there was more light in the room than he expected, didn't check the window as he went by to his own apartment, especially as he had seen the shutter closed earlier ?

Matthew didn't pass by Madeleine's window to get to his apartment.    As he had already planned to go into 5A to check the children on his way back - that would be even less reason for him to think about checking their bedroom window when he left his own place.

The reason he knew the shutters were closed earlier was because he had actually walked up to the window and stood in front of them doing a listening check.

[pathfinder73]

Matthew didn't pass by Madeleine's window to get to his apartment.    As he had already planned to go into 5A to check the children on his way back - that would be even less reason for him to think about checking their bedroom window when he left his own place.

The reason he knew the shutters were closed earlier was because he had actually walked up to the window and stood in front of them doing a listening check.

9:25 Matt/Russ go through car park facing windows. Matt would definitely notice any windows open. No draughts or curtains moving in 5A

9:40 Jane Tanner goes through car park.

9:45 Russ goes back through the car park.

That street light would produce enough light in the car park. A picture of it at night with the light on should reveal the truth. But when Jane claims to have walked straight past Gerry and Jez without being seen people will believe anything in this case!

[mercury]

I am old and have been subjected to the use of chloroform a number of times..... UGH !


You are mistaken mercury.

Chloroform comes as a liquid .  It is soaked onto a pad and it then "gasifies" itself, aneasthetising the patient.

I would think that it is entirelyfeasible that residual traces could be found from the liquid via forensic examination.


I hope the PJ made the effort to check for chloroform, but somehow i doubt it.

Did you used to be a nurse or something?

Thanks. My bad. Chloroform is a liquid, I know, but if it is used on a cloth to drug a person, how can there be residual traces? to find. Any smell quickly disappears and any gases emitted would not be found by any forensic tests.? The PJ did look for this and found nothing, see my link to the PJ files above.

[Brietta]

Did you used to be a nurse or something?

Thanks. My bad. Chloroform is a liquid, I know, but if it is used on a cloth to drug a person, how can there be residual traces? to find. Any smell quickly disappears and any gases emitted would not be found by any forensic tests.? The PJ did look for this and found nothing, see my link to the PJ files above.

There might have been scope for finding something had the pillow and slip been bagged and taken to a lab for testing; if the technology at the time couldn't do it later advances might have.

Dissipating a scent remains one of the possible reasons for the open window.

[mercury]

There might have been scope for finding something had the pillow and slip been bagged and taken to a lab for testing; if the technology at the time couldn't do it later advances might have.

Dissipating a scent remains one of the possible reasons for the open window.

It seems the PJ only bagged the bedding on the other side of the bedroom because they found a substance to test.
I have no idea how or why different police forces work as regards collecting forensics.

Regarding your last sentence, it makes no sense to me, perhaps you can give a reason why an abductor who used chloroform would want the smell to dissipate?

[Brietta]

It seems the PJ only bagged the bedding on the other side of the bedroom because they found a substance to test.
I have no idea how or why different police forces work as regards collecting forensics.

Regarding your last sentence, it makes no sense to me, perhaps you can give a reason why an abductor who used chloroform would want the smell to dissipate?

Is English not your first language?

Dissipate ~ synonyms:   disappear, vanish, evaporate, dissolve, melt away, melt into thin air, be dispelled, dematerialize; More

And as far as the initial investigation went it is recognised by all, even the co-ordinator that the first forensic team's efforts were disastrous ... probably destroying traces if there had been any present, of an intruder.
It therefore was not a question of differing force's procedure more a failure of practice.

[mercury]

Is English not your first language?

Dissipate ~ synonyms:   disappear, vanish, evaporate, dissolve, melt away, melt into thin air, be dispelled, dematerialize; More

And as far as the initial investigation went it is recognised by all, even the co-ordinator that the first forensic team's efforts were disastrous ... probably destroying traces if there had been any present, of an intruder.
It therefore was not a question of differing force's procedure more a failure of practice.

You are  being very sarcastic and pompous to me  (why?), and you did not answer my question. ie WHY would an abductor care about a smell of chloroform being removed? Have to dash.

[sadie]

You are  being very sarcastic and pompous to me  (why?), and you did not answer my question. ie WHY would an abductor care about a smell of chloroform being removed? Have to dash.

%&5%£
To me, that is very obvious.

Try thinking about it mercury.  See if you can work it out.

[stephen25000]

%&5%£
To me, that is very obvious.

Try thinking about it mercury.  See if you can work it out.

Do you have any awareness of the properties of Trichloromethane sadie ?

[faithlilly]

Chloroform can be made at home with household ingredients so it would be impossible to tie it to any one person.

[Mr Gray]

Do you have any awareness of the properties of Trichloromethane sadie ?

just google it and you will find all about it