Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[Miss Taken Identity]

This thread is not discussing whether or not Madeleine McCann was abducted ... it is discussing hard evidence ... much of which was destroyed by inept forensic work and lack of preservation of the crime scene.

The middle and forefinger of Madeleine's mother's left hand were lifted from the window pane. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

Other unidentified prints were circulated abroad for identification.

Clear evidence that people who were not previous occupants of the apartment and who had no legitimate reason for being there on the 3rd May had left fingerprints behind them.

Correction!.. evidence which MAY have shown an intruder, was cleared away by the family and friends of the missing girl!  lets try and keep it real here Breet

You have no known knowledge of missing or lost evidence have you?

[jassi]

This thread is not discussing whether or not Madeleine McCann was abducted ... it is discussing hard evidence ... much of which was destroyed by inept forensic work and lack of preservation of the crime scene.

The middle and forefinger of Madeleine's mother's left hand were lifted from the window pane. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

Other unidentified prints were circulated abroad for identification.

Clear evidence that people who were not previous occupants of the apartment and who had no legitimate reason for being there on the 3rd May had left fingerprints behind them.

Why should these prints and hairs date from the 3rd?  They might have been there for weeks or months, even.

[Miss Taken Identity]

The topic of this thread, unless it get modified (as many do), appears to be:

"Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?"

Has there been any agreement on what "hard evidence" actually means?

Hard evidence would imply physical evidence or independent witness statements. That is my take on the thread question.

Is that what you meant G?

[Gadfly2.1]

She did indeed, but she was in the apartment at the same time as the parents and a friend of theirs. As far as I can tell, none of their friends saw the open shutters/window.

In reply to the question asked, she said that the back door (porta das traseiras) that leads to the parking area was closed, but she doesn't know whether the front door (porta da frente) was locked as when she arrived both the parents and a female friend of theirs whose name she does not know, were there and that is why the door was open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm

Also, forgot to note the GNR officer, Antonio.

Indeed G-Unit, but the point I was implicitly making was that the very fact that some of these versions of events can be corroborated, means that as Prof. Barclay noted, 'staging' must be considered.

For the record, I do believe the window was open by the time the alert was made.  My next consideration is: who opened it.  If you can gain a firm indication on that point (namely Mrs McCann's fingerprints), then one can start to piece together other pieces of evidence (or lack thereof) to substantiate Mr Barclay's point about staging.

[Mr Gray]

Has the statement been repeated since the new investigation was instigated in 2013 ?

Why should it be repeated...it shows that at that time the parents were not suspects...so all this discussion about open shutters is irrelevant

[G-Unit]

Hard evidence would imply physical evidence or independent witness statements. That is my take on the thread question.

Is that what you meant G?

facts, statements, or objects that help to prove whether or not someone has committed a crime

[Gadfly2.1]

Evidence is simply not forensic.  Words (in combination with other evidence) can be used as evidence to prove particular crimes - for example, perverting the course of justice.

[Alfred R Jones]

Why should it be repeated...it shows that at that time the parents were not suspects...so all this discussion about open shutters is irrelevant

Even if Redwood had said it yesterday, the sceptics would cling to the belief that either it was a bluff or that in the 24 hours since he said it  that his opinion had changed.   

[Gadfly2.1]

Alfred - you shouldn't confuse Operation Grange public statements with the personal opinions of the detectives who are shaping the case.

[Carana]

Hard evidence would imply physical evidence or independent witness statements. That is my take on the thread question.

Is that what you meant G?

Does the fact that Madeleine's whereabouts appear to be unknown count as "hard evidence"?

I ask as there are still a few respected posters in certain quarters who appear convinced that she never existed in the first place and that anything suggesting that she did is only part of the wheel of a conspiracy of intergalactic proportions with a view to total mind control. Or something.

[Alfred R Jones]

Alfred - you shouldn't confuse Operation Grange public statements with the personal opinions of the detectives who are shaping the case.

Have you any evidence whatsoever to support the view that what Redwood said vis-à-vis the McCanns not being persons of interest differs from his personal opinion?

[G-Unit]

Also, forgot to note the GNR officer, Antonio.

Indeed G-Unit, but the point I was implicitly making was that the very fact that some of these versions of events can be corroborated, means that as Prof. Barclay noted, 'staging' must be considered.

For the record, I do believe the window was open by the time the alert was made.  My next consideration is: who opened it.  If you can gain a firm indication on that point (namely Mrs McCann's fingerprints), then one can start to piece together other pieces of evidence (or lack thereof) to substantiate Mr Barclay's point about staging.

I think the GNR officer may have been outside, as he says he didn't enter the apartment;

As regards the searches, he say that he did not enter the apartment, as it had already been searched, but instead remained outside. When questioned he replies that he remembers that the blinds of the window of the child's room were open, but inclined (the lower part, at about a hand's width). He does not remember if the window was open or what the state of the curtains was. He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm


The problem with staging is that the window was closed before anyone saw it, which surely lessened the impact.

[Brietta]

[/color]

which part of abroad and where were these evidenced finger prints found?

cite please?  Thanks in advance!

Is there any good reason why you appear to be incapable of following links and retrieving the information for yourself?

Snip
06 Processo 6 Page 1470 to 1477
TRANSLATED BY ALBYM
C - Pages 1470-07, 1498 Processo vol 6 Various Interpol communications from police in eight countries around the world re: comparison of fingerprints with those retained in the databases of those countries
Several prints were unusable for comparison purposes; all others were compared with no results.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

[Gadfly2.1]

I think the GNR officer may have been outside, as he says he didn't enter the apartment;

As regards the searches, he say that he did not enter the apartment, as it had already been searched, but instead remained outside. When questioned he replies that he remembers that the blinds of the window of the child's room were open, but inclined (the lower part, at about a hand's width). He does not remember if the window was open or what the state of the curtains was. He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm


The problem with staging is that the window was closed before anyone saw it, which surely lessened the impact.

The point remains: if KM says the window was open, and she is an immediate witness, and this is corroborated by others, then the reason the window was open must be investigated.

Thankfully windows and shutters mark very easily, as Prof. Barclay pointed out, so one can gain a clear viewpoint as to who opened it, especially if there are finger prints.  Alternatively, because gloves still leave a mark, one could also find out if it was opened by someone who concealed their finger prints.  As no evidence was found to suggest this, it is indicative that the window was opened most likely by the person whose prints were upon it.

And in that case, a detective must adapt to reason from the evidence, rather than adapting the evidence to meet a more palatable theory - as indeed the PJ did.

[Brietta]

Why should these prints and hairs date from the 3rd?  They might have been there for weeks or months, even.

Quite.

The PJ did contact previous occupants of the apartment for elimination purposes I presume.

I presume the same process would apply to all those with a legitimate reason for being in the apartment on the 3rd.

Hairs and fingerprints found in 5A are evidence ... to eliminate them they have to be identified ... surprised you cannot see that unless you are just having another little wum post.