Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[Anna]

Please stay on topic. Thank you.

[pegasus]

I don't know Pegasus, but since there is one each side and they have a hole in the middle of them, Could they be a release lock of some sort, or just screws that connect to the winding up tapes on the inside?

Good someone noticed its a hollow tube. No it's not a release or webbing screw. The important thing is that they stick out and that is hard evidence. How far above the sill are they when the shutter is down?

[Anna]

Good someone noticed its a hollow tube. It's none of above IMO. The important thing is that they stick out and that is hard evidence. How far above the sill are they when the shutter is down?

They are right at the bottom, so probably rain/moisture drainage?
Sticking out....Easy to grip by two people without leaving marks except the smudges around them?

[pegasus]

They are right at the bottom, so probably rain/moisture drainage?
Sticking out....Easy to grip by two people without leaving marks except the smudges around them?

Yes drainage you are observant, but its function is not important
Yes smudges around it (revealed in red dust). Accurate forensics.
When experts looked at the shutter they missed this evidence.
They should have tested the same model of shutter (not an electric one in the Estrela complex).

[Anna]

Yes drainage you are observant, but its function is not important
Yes smudges around it (revealed in red dust). Accurate forensics.
When experts looked at the shutter they missed this evidence.
They should have tested the same model of shutter (not an electric one in the Estrela complex).

So the shutter could be raised from outside, in this manner by hand or using something like a screwdriver, to enable the opening of the window and rolling up the shutter by the inside straps?

[pegasus]

So the shutter could be raised from outside, in this manner by hand or using something like a screwdriver, to enable the opening of the window and rolling up the shutter by the inside straps?

There is plenty gap between sill and thing to use by hand to start raising shutter from outside. Raise by one finger thickness then put hand under shutter and raise to one arm thickness, slide window, use strap. No scratches, no damage. BTW shutter does not recess into sill - it sits on top of sloping sill. Hard physical evidence, missed by experts.

[Carana]

There is plenty gap between sill and thing to use by hand to start raising shutter from outside. Raise by one finger thickness then put hand under shutter and raise to one arm thickness, slide window, use strap. No scratches, no damage. BTW shutter does not recess into sill - it sits on top of sloping sill. Hard physical evidence, missed by experts.

I'm not sure that I follow you on this bit.

This protrusion thing looks like a stopper and as it has a hole may also serve as a ventilation conduit. (Is there another one at the other end?)


So far ok.

But, if the blind had been fully down, I don't see where the finger space would be under the bottom of the blind.

Matt thought that some light was coming into the room - which might have indicated that the blind wasn't fully down (i.e. with spaces in between the slats), and possibly easier to lift slightly for finger space.

Alternatively, that protuberance could have been used to raise the shutter a little to give finger space.

If whoever lifted the blind had done so from inside, I don't understand why the strap wasn't used.

I'm not convinced that anyone entered via that window, but it's a possibility.

[pegasus]

I'm not sure that I follow you on this bit.

This protrusion thing looks like a stopper and as it has a hole may also serve as a ventilation conduit. (Is there another one at the other end?)


So far ok.

But, if the blind had been fully down, I don't see where the finger space would be under the bottom of the blind.

Matt thought that some light was coming into the room - which might have indicated that the blind wasn't fully down (i.e. with spaces in between the slats), and possibly easier to lift slightly for finger space.

Alternatively, that protuberance could have been used to raise the shutter a little to give finger space.

If whoever lifted the blind had done so from inside, I don't understand why the strap wasn't used.

I'm not convinced that anyone entered via that window, but it's a possibility.

There are 2, they are not stoppers. When the shutter is closed there is a gap about 2 fingerwidths between them and the sill. IMO they are metal. The hard evidence is they are certainly there, and the left one has marks around it in the red dust.

[sadie]

There are 2, they are not stoppers. When the shutter is closed there is a gap about 2 fingerwidths between them and the sill. IMO they are metal. The hard evidence is they are certainly there, and the left one has marks around it in the red dust.

How very observant of you Pegasus.

When I enlarged the image x400, I could clearly see the G shape of a hand around the sticking out thing.

The left hand was used and the Y shape between the thumb and first finger was firmly against the bottom of tube thingy in order to push up.  The print of the thumb, first and middle finger can be clearly seen.  It is so clear that you can even see the finger joints [sections of the fingers]


Well done Pegasus!   Brilliant sleuthing.



So someone did open the shutters from out side !

[DCI]

How very observant of you Pegasus.

When I enlarged the image x400, I could clearly see the G shape of a hand around the sticking out thing.

The left hand was used and the Y shape between the thumb and first finger was firmly against the bottom of tube thingy in order to push up.  The print of the thumb, first and middle finger can be clearly seen.  It is so clear that you can even see the finger joints [sections of the fingers]


Well done Pegasus!   Brilliant sleuthing.



So someone did open the shutters from out side !

I wonder if any of those inadequate prints were the forensic woman's?

[pathfinder73]

The crime scene was compromised before the police got there. The shutters should never have been touched. Gerry broke the one in their bedroom  &%+((£

[sadie]

The crime scene was compromised before the police got there. The shutters should never have been touched. Gerry already broke the one in their bedroom  &%+((£

Yep, it was absolutely ages after the Tapas group alerted, before the Police arrived.

[pathfinder73]

Yep, it was absolutely ages after the Tapas group alerted, before the Police arrived.

No excuses. They should never have been tampered with. There's no evidence of anybody passing through the window which doesn't surprise me.

[sadie]

No excuses. They should never have been tampered with. There's no evidence of anybody passing through the window which doesn't surprise me.

Fact, Pathfinder that the PJ Pollice did not arrive until, was it over an hour after the alert?

And the GNR, who aparantly were in Odiaxere did not arrive until IIRC about 45 minutes after the alert.


Seems the reception was to blame for the delay.  Possibly Ocean Club protocol played its part?



In hindsight we all know that neither Gerry nor anyone else should have touched anything .... but think of the panic and the puzzle of what happened.  They were not professional police just ordinary people doing their best, or so they thought.

And it seems that once the GNR finally arrioved, they failed to safe guard the crime scene.  Now they were professionals!

[G-Unit]

Fact, Pathfinder that the PJ Pollice did not arrive until, was it over an hour after the alert?

And the GNR, who aparantly were in Odiaxere did not arrive until IIRC about 45 minutes after the alert.


Seems the reception was to blame for the delay.  Possibly Ocean Club protocol played its part?



In hindsight we all know that neither Gerry nor anyone else should have touched anything .... but think of the panic and the puzzle of what happened.  They were not professional police just ordinary people doing their best, or so they thought.

And it seems that once the GNR finally arrioved, they failed to safe guard the crime scene.  Now they were professionals!

GNR called 10.41 arrived 11pm.

PJ called by GNR arrived 12 midnight.

Kate says she saw that Madeleine's toy Cuddle Cat had been left behind, but was careful not to touch it in case it held a clue to who took her.
 
She says: "I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. We were very conscious of not touching things."